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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Funneled into these narrowly-defined roles, their numbers count for nothing.

    I have a lot of respect for Claremont and what he did with the franchise, but after he left the first time the Claremazons have mostly been treading water ever since. Recent storylines make abundantly clear that most important job of the X-Women is to sit down, shut up, and know their place.
    Okay I'm not an X reader so you're gonna have to give examples.

    Is it because they're not in leadership positions or something? Haven't a few of them been given quite a bit of focus in certain titles?

    I need this to be a gender specific thing too, it could just be that not being Wolverine or Cyclops is a hindering factor, which is a problem for guys too.

    In what way have the x women been put in a submissive place?
    Steve Rogers: You ready to follow Captain America into the jaws of death?
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  2. #122
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    I don't know how anyone can say that Magik has sat down, shut up, and learned her place over the last few years. Even when stripped of her powers and locked up she's manipulating people like a boss.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.M. Anthony View Post
    Okay I'm not an X reader so you're gonna have to give examples.

    Is it because they're not in leadership positions or something? Haven't a few of them been given quite a bit of focus in certain titles?

    I need this to be a gender specific thing too, it could just be that not being Wolverine or Cyclops is a hindering factor, which is a problem for guys too.

    In what way have the x women been put in a submissive place?
    Well, Storm was married off to Black Panther and exiled from the line, having come back recently only to get talked down to by Beast. Rogue was the lead in Legacy for a while but she was mostly just a wet blanket there embroiled in romantic drama. Emma Frost is little more than a lapdog for Cyclops now. Kitty Pryde is firmly entrenched in her schoolmarm role, even "bravely" seeing the rest of the team off to battle at the end of AvX. The rest of them hardly warrant a mention, their appearances are spotty and infrequent and they are wholly inconsequential to the direction of the franchise. On the other hand, Gambit has a solo book again, Cable is back and leading a team, Angel was at the center of a major storyline and even Legion has his own title now. Iceman and Beast both appear in several titles and given that Bendis is writing the flagship title you can be sure that their "comedic" banter will be at the forefront.

    Certainly, many of the X-Women are quite popular and there have been plenty of chances throughout the years to really highlight and elevate them to the same kind of status that DC's leading ladies occupy, but these were never really followed through on and the results speak for themselves.

  4. #124
    Junior Member aaronghunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampiric_cannibal View Post
    Solos generally suck.
    Uh. Team books are by and large miserable, they're often an excuse for an author to move an ensemble cast around in inconsequential ways, and writers seldom have a grasp of all the characters in play.

    As for the X-Women, they've been degraded, depowered, disembowled or shuffled about as connective elements too often, with too little individual success - admittedly a weakness of the team format.

  5. #125
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    I would point out that Legion is just the latest focus feature of X-Men Legacy, and considering how many personalities he has, it is hardly a solo-title.

  6. #126
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Nah, I'll take Valkyrie, Hellcat, Psylocke, Captain Marvel, Tigra or Dazzler over Ororo any day.
    I disagree. Ororo is more powerful than any of those women put together and has a much stronger personality--when well written; and I say that as someone who was a big Ms.Marvel fan way back when...
    FAV Comics: Lil' ABNER, DICK TRACY, BATMAN, UNCLE SCROOGE, KAMUI, TOMB OF DRACULA, THE MIGHTY THOR by LEE\KIRBY, WONDER WOMAN by PEREZ\KAREN BERGER, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1-206 and EC COMICS!

  7. #127
    Junior Member JSA's Avatar
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    In fact now that the JSA is gone, doesn't the MU have a substantially larger amount of female characters than the DCU does? It seems that way to me.
    Only few JSA women Missing in action: Cyclone, Jesse Quick, and Lightning ...

    Star Girl returns in 2013

  8. #128
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    While I'm quite fond of some of the X-ladies, I feel compelled to point out that the Avengers have my favourite Marvel heroine, the Scarlet Witch, as well as the ever delectable Wasp, the haughty but sexy Moondragon, the happy-go-lucky Hellcat, the deadly but beautiful Black Widow, Mantis, Mockingbird, Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Monica Rambeau, Carol Danvers, Tigra, Firestar and (countindg Secret Avengers) the voluptuous Valkyrie, amongst others. I'll take Wanda or Val over Domino and Boom Boom any day. And definitely over pretty much every DC female, except maybe the original Huntress, Power Girl, Dawnstar and Jade.
    Emerald Empress, Saturn Girl, Princess Projectra\Sensor Girl, Dream Girl,Wonder Woman, Star Sapphire, Power Girl, Powerwoman, Doctor Light (female version), Poison Ivy, Granny Goodness,Liberty Belle, Zatanna, Phobia, Blackfire, Madame Xanadu, Nocturna and one of their most popular heroines ever, DEATH! All more than a match for
    Marvel's heroines. I reiterate, it's not that DC has better female characters than Marvel, it's that they do more with them. The emphasis is on character first, and "Shag-a-delic" appeal second. YEAH, BABY!
    Last edited by LEADER DESSLOK; 12-26-2012 at 12:10 AM.
    FAV Comics: Lil' ABNER, DICK TRACY, BATMAN, UNCLE SCROOGE, KAMUI, TOMB OF DRACULA, THE MIGHTY THOR by LEE\KIRBY, WONDER WOMAN by PEREZ\KAREN BERGER, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1-206 and EC COMICS!

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampiric_cannibal View Post
    Solos generally suck.
    /:| Are you sure you want to make that statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    Emerald Empress, Saturn Girl, Princess Projectra\Sensor Girl, Dream Girl,Wonder Woman, Star Sapphire, Power Girl, Powerwoman, Doctor Light (female version), Poison Ivy, Granny Goodness,Liberty Belle, Zatanna, Phobia, Blackfire, Madame Xanadu, Nocturna and one of their most popular heroines ever, DEATH! All more than a match for
    Marvel's heroines. I reiterate, it's not that DC has better female characters than Marvel, it's that they do more with them. The emphasis is on character first, and "Shag-a-delic" appeal second. YEAH, BABY!
    I whole heartedly agree with this. Yes I do think Marvel has some great books. Uncanny X-force, Hawkeye, Fantastic Four, plus everything Hickman and Remender, but Marvel just have no idea what to do with their female characters. I don't think its so much of the fact that marvel just emphasize on the sex appeal, but Marvel's women are just so dependant on their men that they just can't sell anything without being tied down to male counterparts or their relationship with other marvel men. Yes we can say the same thing about Catwoman, Batgirl and Supergirl being tied to Batman and Superman, but the fact is DC has been pushing these characters for decades. Over time, these characters build up a fanbase and it just naturally became a staple of the DCU.
    Supergirl was the main feature of Superman/Batman apocalypse animated movie and live action movie, she also died in crisis that had repercussions for years. Wonder Woman had her own TV show, animated movie and another TV show soon, Batgirl's Killing Joke became the top 10 most sold graphic novel for about a decade, Catwoman appeared in every single batman animated series and movie franchise, had her own animated short and live action movie.
    Sure some of them may have been badly done, but the fact is that these DC females are so embedded in pop culture that you see tons of them on Halloween, which goes to show how iconic they are.
    Could we say the same about the female characters in marvel?

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightrider View Post
    /:|
    I whole heartedly agree with this. Yes I do think Marvel has some great books. Uncanny X-force, Hawkeye, Fantastic Four, plus everything Hickman and Remender, but Marvel just have no idea what to do with their female characters. I don't think its so much of the fact that marvel just emphasize on the sex appeal, but Marvel's women are just so dependant on their men that they just can't sell anything without being tied down to male counterparts or their relationship with other marvel men. Yes we can say the same thing about Catwoman, Batgirl and Supergirl being tied to Batman and Superman, but the fact is DC has been pushing these characters for decades. Over time, these characters build up a fanbase and it just naturally became a staple of the DCU.
    Supergirl was the main feature of Superman/Batman apocalypse animated movie and live action movie, she also died in crisis that had repercussions for years. Wonder Woman had her own TV show, animated movie and another TV show soon, Batgirl's Killing Joke became the top 10 most sold graphic novel for about a decade, Catwoman appeared in every single batman animated series and movie franchise, had her own animated short and live action movie.
    And, as I said earlier, several Marvel women have also carried their own titles, sometimes for many years, over the past few decades. Spider-Woman had her own book for over five years (50 issues) plus her own animated series in the early eighties, She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel have both had multiple series', with Sensational She-Hulk lasting 60 issues over five years and Ms. Marvel's last series doing almost as well; Dazzler also lasted five years in her solo title. I'm really not seeing how all of this somehow doesn't count but Supergirl having a movie in the eighties that's largely regarded as a failure does.

  11. #131
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    And, as I said earlier, several Marvel women have also carried their own titles, sometimes for many years, over the past few decades. Spider-Woman had her own book for over five years (50 issues) plus her own animated series in the early eighties, She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel have both had multiple series', with Sensational She-Hulk lasting 60 issues over five years and Ms. Marvel's last series doing almost as well; Dazzler also lasted five years in her solo title. I'm really not seeing how all of this somehow doesn't count but Supergirl having a movie in the eighties that's largely regarded as a failure does.
    I think posters are more interested in the current situation than in what Marvel was like 30 years ago.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    And, as I said earlier, several Marvel women have also carried their own titles, sometimes for many years, over the past few decades. Spider-Woman had her own book for over five years (50 issues) plus her own animated series in the early eighties, She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel have both had multiple series', with Sensational She-Hulk lasting 60 issues over five years and Ms. Marvel's last series doing almost as well; Dazzler also lasted five years in her solo title. I'm really not seeing how all of this somehow doesn't count but Supergirl having a movie in the eighties that's largely regarded as a failure does.
    Spider-Woman animated series was 30 years ago. It wasn't a hit at all her comics was only around 50 issues at the most. They recently gave her a book and that didn't last 1 year.
    She Hulk, Ms Marvel, Dazzler, only had 1 or 2 successful run that was probably 50-60 issues max. "Captain Marvel" has only been around for a few months but its going to get cancelled soon. The only long running female marvel comics I can think of is Spider-girl in an alternate universe and she is nowhere to be present now.
    Sure Supergirl's movie is regarded a failure, but she did have countless appearances on other media since then. Supergirl is also one of the most iconic super heroines of all time. She even have her own clothing line IIRC. There is no arguments right now that these characters are way more popular and iconic than Ms Marvel, She Hulk, Spider Woman or Dazzler.
    Just looking at the charts you can easily see that Batgirl, Supergirl, Wonder Woman and Catwoman are some of the books that have no danger of being cancelled for the next few years.
    If just by looking as per issue count, these DC females probably has twice or thrice or 5X as many issues as She-Hulk did.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    I think posters are more interested in the current situation than in what Marvel was like 30 years ago.
    Then why mention the Wonder Woman TV show, the Supergirl movie and all the rest of that stuff? That is just as old and just as irrelevant to the current situation.
    Last edited by tony ingram; 12-26-2012 at 07:08 AM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    And, as I said earlier, several Marvel women have also carried their own titles, sometimes for many years, over the past few decades. Spider-Woman had her own book for over five years (50 issues) plus her own animated series in the early eighties, She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel have both had multiple series', with Sensational She-Hulk lasting 60 issues over five years and Ms. Marvel's last series doing almost as well; Dazzler also lasted five years in her solo title. I'm really not seeing how all of this somehow doesn't count but Supergirl having a movie in the eighties that's largely regarded as a failure does.
    But those runs are only substantial by Marvel's standards. Wonder Woman's solo series has run for more than 600 issues, which is probably more than all of Marvel's women combined. Birds of Prey has more than 150 issues while Fearless Defenders will be lucky to get to #10. Cassandra Cain held her own title for the better part of a decade and she's not even the "real" Batgirl. Hell, even Lois Lane had a far more successful run in her own comic than any of the Marvel girls could ever dream of.

    Just about the only really famous storyline that Marvel has ever produced starring a female character is the Dark Phoenix Saga. The lead heroine of that story, of course, has never even been considered for her own title and has largely been treated as a joke and sideshow ever since. So much so that when Marvel went for a blatant rehash of this story for their last big summer event, they proudly announced that she would not even be appearing and featured her dreadfully dull former boyfriend in the lead role. For some reason, I can't quite picture DC taking the same route.

  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Well, Storm was married off to Black Panther and exiled from the line, having come back recently only to get talked down to by Beast. Rogue was the lead in Legacy for a while but she was mostly just a wet blanket there embroiled in romantic drama. Emma Frost is little more than a lapdog for Cyclops now. Kitty Pryde is firmly entrenched in her schoolmarm role, even "bravely" seeing the rest of the team off to battle at the end of AvX. The rest of them hardly warrant a mention, their appearances are spotty and infrequent and they are wholly inconsequential to the direction of the franchise. On the other hand, Gambit has a solo book again, Cable is back and leading a team, Angel was at the center of a major storyline and even Legion has his own title now. Iceman and Beast both appear in several titles and given that Bendis is writing the flagship title you can be sure that their "comedic" banter will be at the forefront.

    Certainly, many of the X-Women are quite popular and there have been plenty of chances throughout the years to really highlight and elevate them to the same kind of status that DC's leading ladies occupy, but these were never really followed through on and the results speak for themselves.
    I agree with everything you said, but there are also examples to the contrary.

    Psylocke received her own character arc in Remender's UXF with Otherworld. I disliked that she was basically the Chick of the team who had Archangel on her mind all the time, but she did receive her arc.
    Storm and Psylocke are at the forefront of the new UXF which I have high hopes for. Storm also led her own team in Wood's X-Men but that went nowhere after she left. Even after the breakup with BP, she's still running after him like a lovesick puppy.
    Magik has generally been a boss all throughout Gillen's Uncanny X-Men and is the few rays of hope in Bendis' X-Men.

    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    But those runs are only substantial by Marvel's standards. Wonder Woman's solo series has run for more than 600 issues, which is probably more than all of Marvel's women combined. Birds of Prey has more than 150 issues while Fearless Defenders will be lucky to get to #10. Cassandra Cain held her own title for the better part of a decade and she's not even the "real" Batgirl. Hell, even Lois Lane had a far more successful run in her own comic than any of the Marvel girls could ever dream of.
    Then who is, according to you? Just curious.


    Just about the only really famous storyline that Marvel has ever produced starring a female character is the Dark Phoenix Saga. The lead heroine of that story, of course, has never even been considered for her own title and has largely been treated as a joke and sideshow ever since. So much so that when Marvel went for a blatant rehash of this story for their last big summer event, they proudly announced that she would not even be appearing and featured her dreadfully dull former boyfriend in the lead role. For some reason, I can't quite picture DC taking the same route.
    Blasphemy.
    Jean Grey was awesome and the best part of Grant Morrison's New X-Men.
    Last edited by The Man From Room X; 12-26-2012 at 07:16 AM.
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