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  1. #31
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    I dunno. I think I have to side with Marvel women. DC women for the first few decades tended to mostly be either unlikable ball-busters like Jean Loring and Iris West, or they were untrustworthy schemers like Lois and Lana. For many years, Wonder Woman and Supergirl were the lone oasis in a desert of harpies.

    But Marvel has had great female characters from pretty early on.

  2. #32
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    I don't know why more people aren't buying Red She-Hulk.

    It's one of the best books around...male or female protagonist.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  3. #33
    BANNED
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    I wouldn't classify myself as a feminist of any kind but from a coldly observant perspective, with a few exceptions, Marvel women are mostly treated as sex objects.
    Seriously? Sue Richards? The Scarlet Witch (pre-Bendis)? The Wasp? These women have been depicted as strong, independent and capable for years, and certainly not sex objects!

    Why do I say such? Because I was a Ms.Marvel fan way back in the day.
    So was I. What was the problem?
    Marvel just goes to places with their female characters that wouldn't really be tolerated at DC (but some fans may find exceptions with DC, too--like that "bouncing Catwoman" nonsense or Miller's "We keep our masks on..." b.s.! However, even when DC heroines or villainesses had off-spring by super-(deadbeat) dads, these women raised their children on their own or the fathers actually stepped up-- Like Bats, Wally West(?) and Arsenal. On the other hand, Marvel just has a bad track record concerning their female characters...

    Examples:

    1. Just look at how Psylocke was depicted while Claremont was there--then look after his departure. From fealess warrior to alluring, Psyclops weakening temptress.
    As I said earlier, for me, Claremont ruined Betsy as a character. She wasn't created to be a "fearless warrior", and was never depicted as such in her original UK appearances.

    2. The Ms.Marvel rape story. From fierce Kree influenced warrior--to a googly-eyed "lover" for Immortus' horny son!
    Oh, that. One story, more than thirty years ago...

    3. Original She-Hulk--ran around in a torn slip--even when Jennifer Walters was wearing pants.
    You may not have noticed, but her male counterpart also tended to burst out of his clothes. Jen was smaller than She-Hulk.
    Then when the She-Hulk started wearing costumes--the artists would
    find reasons to get her out of them or into ever shrinking bikinis!

    4. Let's not forget Sue Richards "bunny ranch" outfit from the 90s!

    5. Dream Girl and Sensor Girl (I think) have each led the Legion of Super-Heroes, Blackfire, Emerald Empress and Phobia have led their super villain squadrons. On the plus side, Storm once led the X-Men but who else was next? (*crickets chirping*)--The Guardian's wife led Alpha Flight--badly.
    Sue led the FF for about three years while Reed was dead. The Wasp and Captain Marvel (Monica) both led the Avengers for lengthy periods, as did Black Widow for a shorter period. Even Candy Southern led the Defenders...

    6. Alicia Masters aka "Spalding"-- was passed from The Thing to Johnny Storm to The Silver Surfer. Later writers tried to "retcon" in a skrull to undo the damage but it was "Too little, too late" for me.

    7. And of course, ONE MORE DAY, the gift that keeps on giving. "Mary Jane is weakening Spider-Man", "MJ is too glamorous", "Peter can no longer get by on his own", "She's always standing around worrying" yadda, yadda, yadda! All excuses as to why a strong woman in his life "ages" the man-child they want him to remain!

    Marvel just needs a Karen Berger type of editor somewhere on their editorial staff--IMO!
    You have a very selective memory.

  4. #34
    Ai se eu te pego ;-) superlantern1987's Avatar
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    I have the opposite problem with Marvel. I prefer their female superheroes over their males. However, DC does a far better job. I cant compare Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Zatanna to Ms. Marvel, Elecktra or Storm. I value DC heroines better than Marvels. I feel tthey lackthat special something I find in DC. But, as I mentioned before I prefer them than their counterparts.
    Last edited by superlantern1987; 12-12-2012 at 12:29 AM.
    Eu amo mulher maravilha.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIFTY-TWO (52) View Post
    I don't know what it is, but I just can't seem to get into the Marvel women. I've picked up all the books featuring most of the MU women in solos and I just can't seem to stick them out. Captain Marvel is 7 issues in and I just don't know what she's supposed to be about. I'm already beginning to sour on Red She-Hulk because I just don't understand why she has a title and Jennifer Walters doesn't. I've added FF because it's lady centric and the first issue of JiM starring Sif (another generic warrior woman) is showing some promise. I'm also planning to try out the Fearless Defenders, too. I'd hate to think I'm jaded against the MU women because they've been in powerful stories, but for the life of me, they're so boring when they head out on their own.
    There seems to be a little too much navel-gazing with the MU ladies, whereas the DCU women are out doing all manner of things.
    As characters, I like She-hulk, Mary Jane, Black Widow and Frost.

    However, I love DC women a lot: Catwoman, Wonder Woman, Harley, PG, Fire, Ice, Zatanna, Supergirl, Batgirl, Sue, Lois, Mera. I'd love a book about Fire and Ice with a JLI type of sitcom tone between fights. AH! doing the art, of course.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  6. #36
    The Slender Man vampiric_cannibal's Avatar
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    Marvel has the X-Women: I'm a fan of Polaris, R'chel, Hope, Butterfly, Magik etc etc. Storm is quite popular, if not for me. Cosmic also has a few gems: Phyla Vell, Moondragon, Gamora and my beloved, departed fodder Praxagora. And Cammi, back from Limbo for possible death and/or dismemberment in Avengers Arena.
    The third, most 'iconic' - (not nearly most popular, but generic and has lots of red and black) - Marvel line, the combined Ultimate Fantastic Avengers, has fewer women of note. She-Hulk, the insanely pushed but not terribly popular Carol Danvers (evil counterpart Moonstone is more popular, it seems), Black Widow, Sue Storm and who else, Mary Jane and Aunt May?

    DC has more good chicks than generic Marvel, lower proportion than X-line, maybe equivalent to Marvel Cosmic.
    I would like to say for the record that this is the FIRST TIME I've withheld dong when someone was so desperately asking for some.
    Brian C Wood

  7. #37
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    I think it's a big deal that the DCU women stand shoulder to shoulder with the DCU men. Since Blackest Night, Mera's been every bit as important as Aquaman. Wonder Woman is one of a few heroes that can bring an out of control Superman to heel. Lady Shiva and Cassie Cain were the best hand to hand combatants on Earth. Starfire, Wonder Girl, Terra, and Raven were all more powerful than the men on New Teen Titans. Women were often leaders of the Legion, Legion Academy, and the Legion Espionage Squad. Barbara Gordon is indomitable, whether she's the source of info as Oracle, or an ass-kicker as Batgirl. Together with Black Canary and Huntress she led an all-woman team of crime fighters that's almost a decade old in concept.

    I'm sure there are more examples, but the DCU women stand out because they were all these things without becoming psycho goddesses bent on the planet's destruction or sending a message. When women were running DC, the DCU women got to be the best they could be and still had room for improvement. It's quite an achievement.
    "A man can be happy with any woman as long as he does not love her."

    Oscar Wilde

  8. #38
    The curious one.
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    Question: How many titles featuring solo females (legacy or non-legacy) has DC put out in the last two years and how many has marvel put out?

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genki Sudo View Post
    I can't tell as the few DC women I followed have been either "banned"( you know who they are ) or have lost everything that made them interesting ( every woman associated with Wildstorm and Amanda "The Wall" Waller )
    Still not sure why they went for a 'sexy' Amanda Waller.

  10. #40
    Junior Member The Duke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitbull in a skirt View Post
    Still not sure why they went for a 'sexy' Amanda Waller.
    "Mistah Joker, he dead."

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquidSquod View Post
    Most Marvel women are standalone, non legacy characters - especially the X-gals. It's Storm, Elektra or Shadowcat, not Batthis or Superthat.

    That's a plus for me. What they need are better writers and stories.
    Are they really standalone or are they belonging to a franchise called x-men.
    If they are standalone, then we can count in tons of titans and legion female superheroes.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
    And for every one of that, theres Emma Frost, Psylocke, Black Cat, She Hulk.
    Amanda Waller only showed her cleavage in the first issue, besides, I don't see how that is fanboy fantasies. Women dress like that all the time, even to work, her cleavage wasn't even that low.

  12. #42
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    It seems to me that Marvel hasn't really tried to have that many successful solos in years. They've gone almost completely team focused. It's not surprising that their female solos end up not doing so well in that context. If it isn't someone super well established as a solo character like Spider-Man they aren't likely to try. DC by contrast has been failing to make decent team books in recent years and its best books tend to be solos, so their female solos come out better. Overall I feel that Marvel has better female characters, Magik, Storm, MJ, Sue Richiards, ect. But if the focus is so much on team books they're not going to get as much of a chance to shine on their own or as good a chance.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    They are building Red She-Hulk into a powerhouse, imo, and she can go into full Bruce Banner Hulk mode where she looks like a friggin she ogre- aka- not sexy as of last issue when she gets truly pissed. I'm digging this book, as well as Wonder Woman. I do think DC has Marvel beat right now, but I think RSH is doing a fine job. I think it's a pity the Spider-Woman solo didn't take off with Bendis/Maleev. Really liked that title.

  14. #44
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
    When were Starfire and Catwoman not sexy, though?
    And let's not act as if the Marvel women are paragons of virtue. Black Widow, alone, has bedded nearly all of the male Avengers and Bucky. Ms. Marvel fell in love with her rapist/son. We've even seen a version of Scarlet Witch who was banging her brother. DC's nearly puritanical compared to that.
    "A man can be happy with any woman as long as he does not love her."

    Oscar Wilde

  15. #45
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movieartman View Post
    1.) what the hell is wrong with characters being alluring temptresses???, and how does that make them less of a fearless warrior, and Psylocke has been pretty freaking great with her recent trials in uncanny x-force

    2.) what the hell was that crap from???

    3.) NOW YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH (lol) Shehulk is a character that should aways be badass and sexy in equal measure
    ITEM #1- She went from being a great warrior to a pathetic temptress who doesn't have the "mammaries" to get her own man! That's what's "wrong" with it. I haven't read a lot of recent X-Men stuff because of some of the things I've heard about them--from X-Men fans!

    ITEM #2- From THE AVENGERS (vol. 1) #200 (Which I hate with a passion!)

    ITEM #3- This ain't the Theme from Shaft and you're no Isaac Hayes but getting back to She-Hulk, John Byrne worked very hard to give the She-Hulk some kind of credibility by having her in the F.F. because as he admitted, she was a "joke" of a character and a shameless effort by Marvel to create a "Hulk-franchise" during the time when Ol' Greenskin had a hit (and well respected) television series. But I think Byrne short-circuited some of his efforts by not only drawing her beautiful (no problem there, admittedly) but also engaging in a little "cheesiness" himself with those same shrinking bikinis.

    It only got worse after the Byrne era of She-Hulk appearances, not only has Tony Stark "tapped those gamma rays" but so has The Juggernaut?!? So, who's got time for super-heroing when the girl's got other "work" to do?

    As for DC's "New52" stuff--I think DC is getting a sufficient earful from their fans about some of the recent goings-on and how it affects their own reputation for creating strong and interesting female characters.
    FAV Comics: Lil' ABNER, DICK TRACY, BATMAN, UNCLE SCROOGE, KAMUI, TOMB OF DRACULA, THE MIGHTY THOR by LEE\KIRBY, WONDER WOMAN by PEREZ\KAREN BERGER, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1-206 and EC COMICS!

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