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  1. #16
    Senior Member Ed Sizzers's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's not pretty.

    I don't know if we'll see Ed on the book again, now. The solicits on the DC website do still have him listed for #16 and #17; but they also still have him down as the artist for this month's issue too, so I'm doubtful he'll be back.

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  2. #17
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    I hope he has a good finish to Simone's stories.

  3. #18

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    What I don't really understand is that Ray Fawkes did covers/paintings before and instead they just got some dude to do a significantly less good cover. :|

    I hope he does well, I liked his independent works, though I don't think he can do much in the span of 2 issues.

  4. #19
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    I really like Sampere's art and I'm going to hope for the best from Fawkes but it's such a shame that Gail won't be telling this story anymore.

  5. #20
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    I really like Sampere's art and I'm going to hope for the best from Fawkes but it's such a shame that Gail won't be telling this story anymore.
    If DC has some common sense, they will reverse this new editors decision and get Gail BACK on the book after this two issue break. She's already stated future issues have already been scripted and completed.
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  6. #21

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    Even if I hear the replacement is awesome I'm just going to pic up the TPB cause it's the only way I can register my sincere disappointment with this.
    Batgirl, Superman/Wonder Woman, Detective Comics, Worlds Finest, Batman/Superman, The Movement, Astro City, Kick Ass 3, Miracle Man, Nightcrawler, Red Sonja, The Star Wars, Sandman: Overture, The Maxx

  7. #22

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    I'm excited about this. I tried - I really did - to like Simone's Batgirl, but I found it melodramatic, tedious and formulaic. And I say that as a MASSIVE fan of her Villains United/Secret Six stuff. Massive.

    But Ray Fawkes is an up and comer who deserves a chance, and this is probably going to be it (as co-writer never gives one the same notoreity -- I'm eagerly anticipating his contributions to JL Dark too, though, and hope that he will bring a big concept flare to it that it has been missing significantly).

    So I'll definitely jump on this book.

    Surprised by how mediocre the artists are on a lot of the secondary Batman books, though. Nightwing and Batgirl both sell quite well, and yet neither has a consistent quality artist -- just a bunch of workman like folks cycling through.
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  8. #23
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    If DC has some common sense, they will reverse this new editors decision and get Gail BACK on the book after this two issue break. She's already stated future issues have already been scripted and completed.
    If only...
    I'm going to be picking up Fawkes' fill in issues because I think new talent deserves a chance, but I'll most likely be dropping this book and sticking with a TPB format to voice my disappointment with this editors decision.

  9. #24
    The Older Waiter Brave Sir Robbin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    I'm excited about this. I tried - I really did - to like Simone's Batgirl, but I found it melodramatic, tedious and formulaic. And I say that as a MASSIVE fan of her Villains United/Secret Six stuff. Massive.

    But Ray Fawkes is an up and comer who deserves a chance, and this is probably going to be it (as co-writer never gives one the same notoreity -- I'm eagerly anticipating his contributions to JL Dark too, though, and hope that he will bring a big concept flare to it that it has been missing significantly).

    So I'll definitely jump on this book.
    I think the problem is that whether you liked Simone's take on Batgirl or not, the book's tremendous sales are built on her version of Batgirl. So a replacement writer does not have to just tell a decent story, he has to carry Barbara Gordon as she has been set. Simone's detractor's don't like the character as she has been made. Her fans, who have propelled the book to a serious success (the only people who argue against the sales success construct silly theories built on convoluted and non stop fortuitous strikes of luck that propelled a crappy book way up the charts) want that Barbara Gordon as she portrayed. I am a fan of Simone's Barbara Gordon: thoughtful, feeling, brave, heroic, humane, and most of all, not a simplistic, two diminsional cardboard cut out. Now for another writer to come in and do Barbar Gordon as she is without totally changing her or turning her into a another crappy DC hero will be a skill beyond just being a guy that can write good comics.

    I see this book drifting down the ranks to settle in with the other underperforming books that are really just shallow and poorly executed like BOP, Red Hood, Catwoman, and really, much of DC's fairly pedestrian drivel once you get out of their better books at the top. It is unfortunate but I have kind of accepted it and will just jump on Simone's next project someplace else.

    This book will probably not be a good test of the writer's abilities. He may pull it off but if not, I won't hold it against him.

    Justice League Dark itself, although I pick it up, is sort of drifting into the drop pile for me. In the initial push of the New 52 I got it because of the excitement and I knew some characters. However, you should copare it to BOP or Secret Six since we are speaking of her team books. JLD is a pretty second rate compared to her books. Gail can take a team, create great characters and dynamics, and still put them in a great plot. JLD is drifting along with a changing cast and now you got the Trevor dynamics. It is now one of those I get out of habit where I go, "do I really need ths?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    Surprised by how mediocre the artists are on a lot of the secondary Batman books, though. Nightwing and Batgirl both sell quite well, and yet neither has a consistent quality artist -- just a bunch of workman like folks cycling through.
    I know a lot of posters are really into the art but for me, and I can't be alone, the art is there as a means to an end. I love the characters and stories. The art is there to make the stories come alive. It doesn't have to be more than competent illustration as long as it does the job and does not detract. I found I loved Brubaker's Catwoman run and it had really simple art. It didn't matter. I liked the stories. Now great art helps and can add a ton, but it doesn't have to.
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  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Sir Robbin View Post
    I think the problem is that whether you liked Simone's take on Batgirl or not, the book's tremendous sales are built on her version of Batgirl. So a replacement writer does not have to just tell a decent story, he has to carry Barbara Gordon as she has been set. Simone's detractor's don't like the character as she has been made. Her fans, who have propelled the book to a serious success (the only people who argue against the sales success construct silly theories built on convoluted and non stop fortuitous strikes of luck that propelled a crappy book way up the charts) want that Barbara Gordon as she portrayed. I am a fan of Simone's Barbara Gordon: thoughtful, feeling, brave, heroic, humane, and most of all, not a simplistic, two diminsional cardboard cut out. Now for another writer to come in and do Barbar Gordon as she is without totally changing her or turning her into a another crappy DC hero will be a skill beyond just being a guy that can write good comics.
    If the only thing you're willing to accept is Gail Simone's version of this character, then yes I don't see how you couldn't be disappointed by whatever comes out after. Because it's not going to be Gail Simone writing it.

    But if you're open to smart, nuanced takes on the character that aren't identical in style or specifics to what Simone did, then I think you have a chance of being satisfied.

    I understand what it feels like when a writer you love leaves or is taken off a book you love, but I do try to stay open minded about what comes after, judging it on its own terms. Part of those terms is that it follows logically from what came before, but that doesn't mean that it has to be identical. For me, of course.


    I see this book drifting down the ranks to settle in with the other underperforming books that are really just shallow and poorly executed like BOP, Red Hood, Catwoman, and really, much of DC's fairly pedestrian drivel once you get out of their better books at the top. It is unfortunate but I have kind of accepted it and will just jump on Simone's next project someplace else.
    Different strokes, of course, but Red Hood was a far more nuanced book than Batgirl, from what I read. The excessive, melodramatic, frankly repetitive info dumps didn't make the book genuinely dense, just cluttered.



    Justice League Dark itself, although I pick it up, is sort of drifting into the drop pile for me. In the initial push of the New 52 I got it because of the excitement and I knew some characters. However, you should copare it to BOP or Secret Six since we are speaking of her team books. JLD is a pretty second rate compared to her books. Gail can take a team, create great characters and dynamics, and still put them in a great plot. JLD is drifting along with a changing cast and now you got the Trevor dynamics. It is now one of those I get out of habit where I go, "do I really need ths?"
    Fawkes hasn't actually written an issue of JLD yet.



    I know a lot of posters are really into the art but for me, and I can't be alone, the art is there as a means to an end. I love the characters and stories. The art is there to make the stories come alive. It doesn't have to be more than competent illustration as long as it does the job and does not detract. I found I loved Brubaker's Catwoman run and it had really simple art. It didn't matter. I liked the stories. Now great art helps and can add a ton, but it doesn't have to.
    Writing is more important for me, but artwork plays into it sincerely, in ways I suspect you don't even recognize. It's a subconscious thing, 'selling' the moments that the writer imagines.

    Brubaker's Catwoman didn't have 'simple' artwork. It had BRILLIANT artwork, between Cooke and Stewart, with flawless storytelling and gallons of personality dripping off of every page. No one would be complaining if we were getting that kind of artwork on Batgirl. Those two artists are literally at the top of the hierarchy.
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  11. #26
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Sir Robbin View Post
    I think the problem is that whether you liked Simone's take on Batgirl or not, the book's tremendous sales are built on her version of Batgirl. So a replacement writer does not have to just tell a decent story, he has to carry Barbara Gordon as she has been set. Simone's detractor's don't like the character as she has been made. Her fans, who have propelled the book to a serious success (the only people who argue against the sales success construct silly theories built on convoluted and non stop fortuitous strikes of luck that propelled a crappy book way up the charts) want that Barbara Gordon as she portrayed. I am a fan of Simone's Barbara Gordon: thoughtful, feeling, brave, heroic, humane, and most of all, not a simplistic, two diminsional cardboard cut out. Now for another writer to come in and do Barbar Gordon as she is without totally changing her or turning her into a another crappy DC hero will be a skill beyond just being a guy that can write good comics.

    I see this book drifting down the ranks to settle in with the other underperforming books that are really just shallow and poorly executed like BOP, Red Hood, Catwoman, and really, much of DC's fairly pedestrian drivel once you get out of their better books at the top.
    Yes, if this new editor Mr. Brian Cunningham is going to order the new writer Mr. Fawkes to turn Batgirl into some pat steam punk enforcer type, then they will see a sales trajectory not unlike the day of the great depression in 1929. The fans of the book like that this character is NOT SIMPLISTIC and has fears, but moves on despite of them, and even USES her fear to fuel her sense of justice to help others. That's pretty smart writing.

    I too sadly see this book quickly going 5K under Batwoman's current sales mark of 36K. Well at least I will have my HC's of volumes #1-3 to remind me of the time that Batgirl FINALLY got her due, although the time of it was far shorter than I would have hoped for. I'm worried this book is going to get simplified into the dreck of the 2/3rd's of books that haven't been doing well in the new 52 because they have nothing of note to offer in either the writing or art.
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  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    I'm worried this book is going to get simplified into the dreck of the 2/3rd's of books that haven't been doing well in the new 52 because they have nothing of note to offer in either the writing or art.
    Do you know anything about Ray Fawkes?

    Christ, I'll copy-paste you his official bio if you want.

    "Ray Fawkes is a Toronto-based fine artist and writer of graphic novels, prose fiction, and games. Ray's work ranges in styles from introspective, dreamscape narrative to bombastic slapstick. He is an Eisner, Harvey, and three-time Shuster Award nominee, and a YALSA award winner for "Possessions Book One: Unclean Getaway". His newest book, "One Soul", debuted in July 2011 to critical acclaim, including a starred booklist review, and has been nominated for the 2012 Eisner award and 2012 Harvey award."

    He's remarkably versatile and would do a lot better than a standard formulaic superhero book. Depends whether he can do his own thing or has to waste his time dealing with plot threads about a villain who honestly never should've appeared anywhere other than the one story that was made for him.

  13. #28

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    I'm pretty keen for this new guy actually. It seems like Simone is gone - sucks, but it's happened. I doubt much is going to change about it. But new talent is always good, especially when they can come in and exceed expectations. I mean, I'd never heard of Joshua Hale Fialkov before he came in and blew me away with I, Vampire. I'd never read anything by Bryan Q. Miller before Batgirl, and he nailed it perfectly. I think Fawkes might be able to pull off something great - but only if editorial doesn't shackle him. It seemed to me that both Fialkov and Miller managed to avoid the editors messing too much with them, so if Fawkes can get the same opportunity then we could get a really good run.
    ಠ_ಠ

  14. #29
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    If DC has some common sense, they will reverse this new editors decision and get Gail BACK on the book after this two issue break. She's already stated future issues have already been scripted and completed.
    That means nothing. It's very common to ignore unpublished work by a writer that's been replaced. When Chuck Dixon (who works way ahead) left Nightwing, they had a half dozen or more completed scripts of his already in the drawer which they ignored so that Devin Grayson could get started on the title sooner.

    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    Yes, if this new editor Mr. Brian Cunningham is going to order the new writer Mr. Fawkes to turn Batgirl into some pat steam punk enforcer type, then they will see a sales trajectory not unlike the day of the great depression in 1929. The fans of the book like that this character is NOT SIMPLISTIC and has fears, but moves on despite of them, and even USES her fear to fuel her sense of justice to help others. That's pretty smart writing.

    I too sadly see this book quickly going 5K under Batwoman's current sales mark of 36K. Well at least I will have my HC's of volumes #1-3 to remind me of the time that Batgirl FINALLY got her due, although the time of it was far shorter than I would have hoped for. I'm worried this book is going to get simplified into the dreck of the 2/3rd's of books that haven't been doing well in the new 52 because they have nothing of note to offer in either the writing or art.
    You seem to be making a lot of assumptions (actually, assuming the worst) about something you really have no knowledge of. Here's a novel idea: how about we wait and give the new writer(s) a chance, judging him/her on their own work rather than our own preconceived ideas.
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  15. #30
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    I am not familiar with Mr. Fawkes' work and therefore intend to remove Batgirl from my pull list after Gail leaves. But I will skim through his first issue and, if it looks interesting, I will pick it up. No reason to blame the new guy for Gail's misfortune.
    Jim Zimmerman
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