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  1. #76
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Ford Mustang:



    Mustang II:

    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  2. #77
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Then you have greatness replaced with greatness:





    It is possible to replace the classic Superman costume with one that is also great. But IMO, neither the MOS or the nu52 costume does this. Ironically, the best of the new looks is the tshirt and jeans look-the least superhero look of them all.
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  3. #78

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    Evenually someone is going to do a series with a guy in trunks--either in a comic book or in some other format--and people are going to think it's the cleverest thing in the world. Then everybody and his brother-in-law is going to be rushing to copy this new thing. And fanboys will be saying they always knew that trunks were cool (even though they didn't).

    In fact, Marvel was rather crafty stealing the "Captain Marvel" trademark--forcing Billy Batson to call himself Shazam. They ought to put trunks on Spidey--he could pull it off--and then they'd have that as a trademark look.

  4. #79
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I think you're kidding yourself in that regard. The look would have to become fashionable again in some real life pop culture form if its to catch on again, and thus be "cool" again. A new comic book character is not going to make that happen.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-14-2012 at 12:19 AM.

  5. #80
    Senior Member Darth Joker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Krypton View Post
    Nope, still a nonsensical, invalid argument.
    Not at all. You yourself even wrote that "underwear on the outside" criticisms played a significant role in Superman losing his trunks. My point is that similar criticisms can easily be applied to capes, and in fact they have been (such as in The Incredibles movie). And once you change enough of the once-common elements of superhero costumes, will they still visually stand out like a superhero costume should? In fairness, some super-heroes should be fine - Like Iron Man, and Spider-Man. Batman's cape is justified by the whole Bat motif - a bat has wings, so if you're going to be a Batman, it makes logical sense to have something that simulates a bat's wings. But there's nothing about the name "Superman" that logically necessitates a cape. Same with "Captain Marvel" or "Shazam".

    Some characters can weather this "modernization", but not all can. Movie Hawkeye, for example, just looks like a normal Spec Ops agent that happens to use a bow and arrow instead of guns. It makes him look bland compared to most of his Avengers teammates, imo.


    Losing the trunks does not = getting rid of costumes altogether.
    I never said that it did. But it's possible to get overly concerned with super-heroes looking fashionable by everyday Joe and Jane standards. Superheroes aren't supposed to look like everyday Joes and Janes anyway, so such concerns shouldn't even be a factor. Getting rid of trunks is rooted in being overly concerned in making superheroes look fashionable by everyday Joe and Jane standards. Losing capes would flow logically with such concerns. How many average Joes and Janes wear capes in our modern era? Does wearing a cape serve any practical purpose?


    Not even close. Batman hasn't worn trunks in live-action since the 1960s, spent 1994-2000 in a trunkless version of his classic gray/blue/yellow threads, and went trunkless for Batman Inc. and the DC-Nu. His costume has otherwise stayed intact.
    Sure, for the reason I wrote. A Batman should logically make you think of a bat, which necessitates "wings" (simulated by a cape).


    Nobody, and I do mean NOBODY, has even come close to arguing that costumes should be abandoned overall.
    No, but you could accomplish much the same through slowly removing each "unfashionable" and/or superfluous element.

    And look, we've already had both Superman and Superboy wearing costumes that amount to "Jeans with a T-Shirt with the S-symbol on it". So come on, it's not like this is an unreasonable concern if the superheroes themselves are sometimes grounded in normal civilian attire like this.


    What HAS been said is that they want the costumes updated to get rid of aspects that have aged poorly or to reflect current tastes. This is neither unfair or "counterintuitive";
    Sure it is counterintuitive. Superheroes should stand out from the crowd, which means they shouldn't be particularly concerned with the fashions of the masses. A superhero costume should leave an impression, and be distinctly different from civilian attire. Trunks actually helps this. Jeans and a T-Shirt with a S symbol on it? No, that's not standing out at all, really.


    this is one of the ways pulp fiction heroes grow and evolve with the times. Trunks-over-tights is a holdover from the 1920s/1930s when they were standard costuming for both circus performances and sci-fi illustrations. That look was, at the time of Superman's inception, contemporary. Now?
    Now it's owned by superheroes themselves, like Larsen correctly argued. Also, what about pro wrestlers and UFC fighters? Many pro wrestlers and UFC fighters wear trunks. So trunks are still associated with real world strongmen.


    Trunks-over-tights no longer looks futuristic or athletic or powerful; it looks like underwear over your pants now. You can point to the old circus costumes and old sci-fi illustrations all you want, but it does nothing to change the fact that it's a look that's 80 years out of date and strikes people as ridiculous.
    Superheroes are inherently ridiculous. They have otherworldly powers that you never see in the real world. Their costumes should reflect this bizarre nature of them.



    Further, the decision to get rid of Superman's trunks? It was brewing for over a decade.
    I never said it was shocking that it happened.

    But one thing that was made pretty clear by every attempt to get rid of the trunks? The essentials of the Superman costume were going to stay intact regardless.
    This is a silly argument because some Superman fans consider the trunks themselves as an essential part of the Superman costume. Or, if not the trunks themselves, they considered the color balance of the costume to be an essential part of the Superman costume, and that color balance is a lot harder to get without trunks than with them (and frankly, I think both DC and the MoS have failed to find that color balance sans trunks).


    The blue bodysuit, the red boots, the red cape, and the diamond S were going nowhere. And judging from the overall success of the Smallville Season 11 Supersuit, we know for a fact that Superman's costume can work just fine without the trunks.
    What do you mean by "overall success", exactly? Smallville's success obviously never rested on the Superman suit. Nobody watched Smallville to see Superman in a superhero costume.


    Insisting that losing an outdated element like trunks-over-tights = the abolishment of superhero costumes altogether is a bald-faced lie and you know it.
    I'm not saying that it equals that. Of course it doesn't. But the reasons for getting rid of it aren't that far off from reasons for getting rid of capes. Eventually you end up with a Jean/T-Shirt combo with the super-hero's logo on the shirt (like I said before, we've already seen this at least twice). That's certainly not what I want to see as a superhero costume.
    Last edited by Darth Joker; 12-14-2012 at 04:32 AM.
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  6. #81
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Their costumes still do reflect their bizarre nature. Sans trunks, Superman still wears an alien suit that disperses into the chest logo when not in use. Sans trunks, Batman's still a guy that wears a mask on his face complete with bat ears. Sans trunks, Green Lantern's costume is still a construct of a power ring that makes your imaginative thoughts solid matter. And so on and so forth. No costume redesigns of the New 52 threatens the bizarre and outlandish visual nature of the superhero comic book.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-14-2012 at 05:28 AM.

  7. #82
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Krypton View Post

    Further, the decision to get rid of Superman's trunks? It was brewing for over a decade. At least since the ElectroSupes fiasco in 1997, there was talk from fans and pros alike about wanting Superman's traditional suit updated sans trunks. The Superman 2000 pitch by Waid and Morrison included a request to ditch the trunks from the suit. Wizard's "Ultimate Superman" costume design was a huge hit, and even got the thumbs-up from Tim Gunn on Crazy Sexy Geeks. A number of costume designs for the JJ Abrams/Jon Peters/McG Superman Returns pitch went for a no-trunks look, but otherwise kept the overall Superman look intact (surprising, since Peters hates the Supersuit). This change didn't come out of thin air. It was a long time in coming, especially when other heroes were abandoning the trunks-over-tights look. It wasn't a question of if it would happen, but when. But one thing that was made pretty clear by every attempt to get rid of the trunks? The essentials of the Superman costume were going to stay intact regardless. The blue bodysuit, the red boots, the red cape, and the diamond S were going nowhere. And judging from the overall success of the Smallville Season 11 Supersuit, we know for a fact that Superman's costume can work just fine without the trunks. So what's the big deal?Insisting that losing an outdated element like trunks-over-tights = the abolishment of superhero costumes altogether is a bald-faced lie and you know it.


    And yet despite them thinking about or trying to change it ultimately it didn't.
    Smallville suit had the trunks on the outside. The comic (that I seriously doubt many of the people who watched Smallville collect) uses the trunksless look. More than likely because it coincides with the nu52 look. But you didn't hear anyone having a problem with the trunks on the suit for Smallville. Hell the thing that most fans wanted to see in the finale was Welling in the super suit. THE super suit. The one with the trunks.

    Lastly I'd argue that the trunks is one of the essentials of the suit.
    Last edited by R0NIN; 12-14-2012 at 05:31 AM.
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  8. #83
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't know what has you seriously doubting fans of Smallville the show are reading the book, but in any case you're incorrect in that assumption.. Its quite a popular title right now, many of those readers being fans of the show. And if anything I've seen more fans of that book arguing that its suit is the superior suit of any current incarnation in the comics, bet it new 52 or Earth 2 (I wouldn't agree there, but it shows they have little issue with it).
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-14-2012 at 05:36 AM.

  9. #84
    Senior Member Darth Joker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Their costumes still do reflect their bizarre nature. Sans trunks, Superman still wears an alien suit that disperses into the chest logo when not in use. Sans trunks, Batman's still a guy that wears a mask on his face complete with bat ears. Sans trunks, Green Lantern's costume is still a construct of a power ring that makes your imaginative thoughts solid matter. And so on and so forth. No costume redesigns of the New 52 threatens the bizarre and outlandish visual nature of the superhero comic book.
    Nice to see people just completely ignoring factual statements here.

    Did Connor Kent wear a Jeans and T-Shirt "costume"? In Nu52, did Superman sometimes use a Jeans and T-shirt "costume"?
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  10. #85
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
    This is a silly argument because some Superman fans consider the trunks themselves as an essential part of the Superman costume. Or, if not the trunks themselves, they considered the color balance of the costume to be an essential part of the Superman costume, and that color balance is a lot harder to get without trunks than with them (and frankly, I think both DC and the MoS have failed to find that color balance sans trunks)
    This I can definitely agree with. I do think the trunks are a bit outdated, but the color balance is essential to me, and they haven't come up with anything that definitely looks better than the classic suit yet.

    I could be hypocritical though, because I think a belt looks weird because it feels tacked on / non functional, but there's a good chance the only way I don't feel the same about the trunks is because they've been around so long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
    Nice to see people just completely ignoring factual statements here.

    Did Connor Kent wear a Jeans and T-Shirt "costume"? In Nu52, did Superman sometimes use a Jeans and T-shirt "costume"?
    I think in Superman's case he means "as the primary costume". Like we all knew from the get go that the Jeans / Tshirt combo was just for early Supes.

  11. #86
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Superman's jeans and t-shirt is inconsequential. It's very purpose is a starter kit. A makeshift look before he gets his proper costume. A huge part of that first arc was just the anticipation alone of Superman getting his costume.

    And I haven't ignored anything. I already pointed out earlier there was a brief fad in which certain characters went with a more street look. That would include Conner's jeans and t-shirt phase, and Linda's white t-shirt and skirt phase, and I count Morrison's X-Men going for more movie-like duds among that category as well. I never said such a redesign never happened for any character ever. But they were ventures few and far between, and lo and behold none of them lasted. The classic idea of a superhero costume was never in danger then. Just like it isn't now just because Superman's trunks are gone.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-14-2012 at 05:59 AM.

  12. #87
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't know what has you seriously doubting fans of Smallville the show are reading the book, but in any case you're incorrect in that assumption.. Its quite a popular title right now, many of those readers being fans of the show. And if anything I've seen more fans of that book arguing that its suit is the superior suit of any current incarnation in the comics, bet it new 52 or Earth 2 (I wouldn't agree there, but it shows they have little issue with it).
    I'd need to see some numbers but I doubt the sales of the Smallville comic are anywhere near the number of viewers. I admit i could be wrong, but I doubt it. I don't know anyone (myself included after giving it a few issues) that collects the Smallville comic.
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  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I think you're kidding yourself in that regard. The look would have to become fashionable again in some real life pop culture form if its to catch on again, and thus be "cool" again. A new comic book character is not going to make that happen.
    Yeah, and I said--"either in a comic book or in some other format"--because I thought just that--that some non-comic book format might use the trunks and become a pop culture meme. Although I wouldn't call this real life--what's that?

    But you never know with comic books, either. I'm totally surprised by the popularity of THE WALKING DEAD. It's always hard to predict what is going to catch on--and when.

  14. #89
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    I never had an issue with the super-trunks, in fact, they made more sense to me than Batman's trunks because it worked from the whole "Kryptonian/alien fashion" angle. Batman, on the other hand, was just a guy that decided blue/black trunks looked cool.

    But out of all the iconic super-suit staples; the blue suit, the red cape, the red boots, and the \S/; the red trunks are the one piece I can easily do without, which is why I'm fine with them going away. Removing any of those other elements, would be a bigger issue, imo.
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  15. #90

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    A lot of the other elements I liked have been removed. I admit that the reason I love all these elements so much is because as a kid I studied every detail of Superman and taught myself how to draw them. Maybe new kids are doing the same thing with the new Superman--I hope so--although there are some details on the Superman costumes from the movie and from the new 52 that would be hard for a little kid to master.

    So some of my favourite things about Classic Superman:

    The spit curl. Mastering how to draw that with just a few curved lines--one of my greatest challenges as a young artist.

    The S with that bubble on the tail. The S has to have that bubble on the tail. I insist--this is the greatest thing about the S.

    Belt loops. Again as a kid, it was a break through when I realized that doing belt loops is more about what you leave out than what you leave in. Of course, for Superman to have belt loops he needs both a belt and something to put the belt through--like trunks/shorts. And you don't put a belt on your underpants--I don't anyway--so the belt and the belt loops is what makes them shorts or trunks, not underpants (plus underpants are by definition what you wear under--to gird your loins--if you are a man with a pair).

    The round belt buckle. No S, no clunky buckles. A beautifully simple round buckle that brings it all together.

    The low neck line. This is one of Superman's coolest features. It automatically makes him look tough--and gives him a strong looking neck. I used to wonder about why Superman had such a low neckline on his outfit, when I was a kid. But there's no denying it works.

    And with the low neck line goes the cape tucked into the costume. Drawing that part of the cape is a great challenge for a young artist. How to draw folds.

    The all yellow S on the back of the cape. Another odd aspect of Superman--kind of by accident, since various coloured versions of the S on the back of the cape were tried out, before they settled on leaving it all yellow. And early Superman often had no S on the back of his cape. But then how do you know it's Superman from behind? Superman had to trademark his cape.

    The v on the front of the red boots. In a scene where you just see all the Justice League's boots (which was standard, when you had The Atom in the classic JLA), it's important to distinguish one Leaguer's boots from the others. The v thing was Superman's--he owned that look.

    The line strokes on Superman's arms and boots. I always wondered about those lines, when I was a kid, but there was no denying that this tapering worked to make the costume fit better.

    Also, I preferred that Superman's boots not have heels on them. He doesn't really need extra support, because he has Super feet and he's flying most of the time. Making the boots look too heavy is counter productive for Superman flying, because it weighs down the figure visually.

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