Was OMD pointless?

[thirdfalcon]

Why, thank you. A lot of people don't realize how hard it is to maintain the position: the competition is fierce, the hours are thankless, and honestly man? It's kind of lonely at the top. So it's nice to be appreciated once in a while. Really man, thanks ...

I do find it hilarious that - on the internet? One can quickly phrase a post with the words "What people want to see ... " in service of a point about quality storytelling ...

And people turn this into "How dare u speak for everyone OMG SO ARROGANT!!!11!!"

It's funny.

So. Do you believe then, that people that read comics (as a general rule) form of entertainment do *not* care whether

- the plot follows rules of continuity

- that characters stay true to primary motivations (and if they stray, there are solid and plausible reasons for it)

- that rules of the universe (say, Spidey has the approximate strength of 40x an average adult male) are consistently adhered to, and not ignored when convenient (say, one issue he can lift a bus --- five issues later the mob knocks him out and he can hardly break the chains they bind him with)

- that people die and come back to life when convenient

- that stories are well structured, interesting, compelling, intriguing, a bit unpredictable, yet plausible within the confines of that universe ..

... and so on.

In films, TV series, novels, albums, video games, DJ sets ... whatever. There are tight, well crafted compelling works. And there are sloppy, cheezy, and lazy ones.

All kidding aside, there *are* a whole lot of people in the world that can't tell the difference and don't care. They gobble down comics and films and TV shows like Big Macs 24 hours a day - and its all the same to them. Its merely a distraction.

This is how many film studios and publishing houses can survive and stay competitive. They crank out crap, quickly, on a low budget, that caters to simple cliches, derivative plots, and quality be damned.

So (flipping this around): are you speaking for all of *those* people?

The "I like what I like, everything is a matter of opinion" people? The same people that eat Big Macs every day, and when you point out how poisonous it is, they say: "Well that's just a matter of opinion. I like it, so all food is equal in quality. Who are you to say. That's so arrogant" lol

No. A Big Mac is totally *not* the same as an organic salad and fine cut of grass fed beef. It doesn't matter if the Big Mac "tastes better" to you.

That's fine. That is a matter of opinion.

Insisting a Big Mac is of equal quality because you happen to like the taste better is not a matter of opinion.

You can just go on believing that.

Not really, people like what they like and their position is just as valid as ours. If someone doesn't care about what's healthy and chooses to eat what they want based on taste, that is absolutely valid. It's not your place to tell people what is good for them.

In other words, a big mack being better than a salad is dependent on what is important to you. If Taste is what matters more and you like the way a big mack tastes more than a salad, than to you a big mack is better than a salad. If someone doesn't need a deep complex plot and just wants something to distract them, than the Micheal Bay movie is better than the Stanley Kubrick movie.

The salad being more healthy for you than the Big Mack is a fact, but "better" depends on what you are looking for.

[Mikey Brown]

That's how anyone stays in business. Even television.

I thought they stayed in business because they hired orphans from a third world country to write and draw the books, (them being so evil and all)? Plus they hate the military and do everything they can to keep the character YOU love in limbo, dead or just insulting them page after page. Bastards.....

[Mikey Brown]

Why, thank you. A lot of people don't realize how hard it is to maintain the position: the competition is fierce, the hours are thankless, and honestly man? It's kind of lonely at the top. So it's nice to be appreciated once in a while. Really man, thanks ...

I do find it hilarious that - on the internet? One can quickly phrase a post with the words "What people want to see ... " in service of a point about quality storytelling ...

And people turn this into "How dare u speak for everyone OMG SO ARROGANT!!!11!!"

It's funny.

So. Do you believe then, that people that read comics (as a general rule) form of entertainment do *not* care whether

- the plot follows rules of continuity

- that characters stay true to primary motivations (and if they stray, there are solid and plausible reasons for it)

- that rules of the universe (say, Spidey has the approximate strength of 40x an average adult male) are consistently adhered to, and not ignored when convenient (say, one issue he can lift a bus --- five issues later the mob knocks him out and he can hardly break the chains they bind him with)

- that people die and come back to life when convenient

- that stories are well structured, interesting, compelling, intriguing, a bit unpredictable, yet plausible within the confines of that universe ..

... and so on.

In films, TV series, novels, albums, video games, DJ sets ... whatever. There are tight, well crafted compelling works. And there are sloppy, cheezy, and lazy ones.

All kidding aside, there *are* a whole lot of people in the world that can't tell the difference and don't care. They gobble down comics and films and TV shows like Big Macs 24 hours a day - and its all the same to them. Its merely a distraction.

This is how many film studios and publishing houses can survive and stay competitive. They crank out crap, quickly, on a low budget, that caters to simple cliches, derivative plots, and quality be damned.

So (flipping this around): are you speaking for all of *those* people?

The "I like what I like, everything is a matter of opinion" people? The same people that eat Big Macs every day, and when you point out how poisonous it is, they say: "Well that's just a matter of opinion. I like it, so all food is equal in quality. Who are you to say. That's so arrogant" lol

No. A Big Mac is totally *not* the same as an organic salad and fine cut of grass fed beef. It doesn't matter if the Big Mac "tastes better" to you.

That's fine. That is a matter of opinion.

Insisting a Big Mac is of equal quality because you happen to like the taste better is not a matter of opinion.

You can just go on believing that.

I'm glad you're able to tell me what's good and what isn't, I don't know how I'd pick out my comics every week.

[Ben Smith]

YEAH! Slippery Pete is right! You are awful!

I agree, Schmitty is horrible

[Ben Smith]

If someone likes a Big Mac better, that's their business.

not according to Von. they are objectively wrong at life. damn you McDonalds!

[Ben Smith]

If someone doesn't need a deep complex plot and just wants something to distract them, than the Micheal Bay movie is better than the Stanley Kubrick movie.

a lot of people like to place undue importance on the entertainment they read and/or watch, but in the end, you're still watching people play dress up, or write stories about a man that can climb walls. Von would have you believe that some movies have more worth than others, but in the end, it's all about entertainment. a Michael Bay movie never pretends to be anything that it isn't, and it its own way, is more pure for that. I find anyone trying to lambast the literary quality of a story about a man that can crawl up walls, to be completely on the wrong side of sanity. but I guess I have a real life with real problems to worry about, not rating the relative social acceptability of movies and comics.

[Kevin Nichols]

Why, thank you. A lot of people don't realize how hard it is to maintain the position: the competition is fierce, the hours are thankless, and honestly man? It's kind of lonely at the top. So it's nice to be appreciated once in a while. Really man, thanks ...

I appreciate you keeping a sense of humor. That will make this conversation much more pleasant. (I don't use smilies, so you'll just have to trust that anything sarcastic I say is just that.)

I do find it hilarious that - on the internet? One can quickly phrase a post with the words "What people want to see ... " in service of a point about quality storytelling ...

And people turn this into "How dare u speak for everyone OMG SO ARROGANT!!!11!!"

I don't know that it's a matter of arrogance. In some people, sure, but I certainly can't speak for everyone's motives. It does, however, come across as a bit silly because you really can't speak for anyone except for yourself. Everyone sees comics in their own way, so no two readers are looking for the exact same thing.

So. Do you believe then, that people that read comics (as a general rule) form of entertainment do *not* care whether

- the plot follows rules of continuity

Some do, others don't. I don't personally care.

- that characters stay true to primary motivations (and if they stray, there are solid and plausible reasons for it)

Some do, others don't. I like there to be some guideline of characters' primary motivations, but I think it should be flexible depending on the needs of any given story.

- that rules of the universe (say, Spidey has the approximate strength of 40x an average adult male) are consistently adhered to, and not ignored when convenient (say, one issue he can lift a bus --- five issues later the mob knocks him out and he can hardly break the chains they bind him with)

Some do, others don't. I personally don't care. It's a fictional universe, some I'm not concerned with the "rules" remaining consistent.

- that people die and come back to life when convenient

Some do, others don't. I don't care. I think that sort of thing is fun.

- that stories are well structured, interesting, compelling, intriguing, a bit unpredictable, yet plausible within the confines of that universe ..

Opinions will vary on what "well structured, interesting, compelling, intriguing, a bit unpredictable, yet plausible" means. What's interesting to you won't be interesting to everyone.

... and so on.

And so on.

In films, TV series, novels, albums, video games, DJ sets ... whatever. There are tight, well crafted compelling works. And there are sloppy, cheezy, and lazy ones.

Because a particular story doesn't adhere to a tight plot, doesn't necessarily mean that it is sloppy, cheezy, or lazy. Look at Clive Cussler books as an example. They are hardly high literature, but many find them entertaining and very well crafted. Myself included. I think they are fun.

All kidding aside, there *are* a whole lot of people in the world that can't tell the difference and don't care. They gobble down comics and films and TV shows like Big Macs 24 hours a day - and its all the same to them. Its merely a distraction.

This is how many film studios and publishing houses can survive and stay competitive. They crank out crap, quickly, on a low budget, that caters to simple cliches, derivative plots, and quality be damned.

Again, what's "crap" to you won't be crap to everyone. I don't see the appeal of Harry Potter. I think it's crap. But there are lots of people who don't agree with me. Many people find Rowling's books to be very well crafted.

So (flipping this around): are you speaking for all of *those* people?

Of course not. Nor have I ever claimed to. All I've said from the beginning is that one opinion of what is "good" can't be applied as the standard rules for storytelling.

The "I like what I like, everything is a matter of opinion" people? The same people that eat Big Macs every day, and when you point out how poisonous it is, they say: "Well that's just a matter of opinion. I like it, so all food is equal in quality. Who are you to say. That's so arrogant" lol

No. A Big Mac is totally *not* the same as an organic salad and fine cut of grass fed beef. It doesn't matter if the Big Mac "tastes better" to you.

That's fine. That is a matter of opinion.

Insisting a Big Mac is of equal quality because you happen to like the taste better is not a matter of opinion.

You can just go on believing that.

You may be barking up the wrong tree with food comparisons, but you don't know me or what I do for a living, so we'll go with it. A Big Mac is a meticulously crafted and very high quality sandwich. You're right in that it is not the same as an organic salad or grass-fed beef, but that does not diminish the quality of the Big Mac. Nor is it fair to compare two obviously different types of beef.

Now, you can compare grass-fed black angus to grass-fed black wagyu, but there are all kinds of other factors to take into account. Where were the cows raised? What kind of grass were they fed? What were the conditions of each slaughter house? How were they slaughtered? How long between the time they were slaughtered and the time they are served? Were they ever frozen? What are the grades of the cuts? How long did the cuts sit in the restaurant cooler before being cooked? How were they prepared? What were they served with? Etc.

It is absolutely possible to take a prime cut of black wagyu (kobe beef) and utterly destroy it, while McDonald's takes great pains to ensure that every Big Mac that gets served is of equal quality. It is also possible that the fellow who is making a particular Big Mac let the meat patties sit out too long and his Big Mac isn't up to snuff.

To sum up, "quality" can absolutely vary. A more expensive cut does not automatically equate to higher quality. I'll grant you the quality isn't completely subjective, but there are lots and lots of rules, and rules can change on a case-by-case basis.

[Kevin Nichols]

I agree, Schmitty is horrible

Hey. Hang tight on our Words With Friends game. I'm up in Canada for the holiday and internet connection is very sketchy. I'll get back to you in a bit.