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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroid View Post
    Why couldn't his father be a hard-working family man without a criminal background? If you look at Bendis' treatment of black characters, it's all full of stereotypes from Luke Cage's favorite sexual position to Miles' Uncle.
    White men like anal too. How on earth is that a black stereotype?
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  2. #242
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    Do you know what I think is a stereotype? Words like Blacksploitation. If anyone's being anything close to racist, it's those who are complaining about the race issue. Not all, just some of them who think about it too much, being influenced by the media and then repeating nonsensical concepts of pretentious censorship like Politically Correct. Some people even get upset over the topic because they have this belief that all stories should have a large diversity of minorities. This is a result of people getting most of their education from the media. What people need to realise is that it doesn't matter what colour or race anyone is. I understand the fact that there was an outcry about a Black Spider-Man last year, but I can't believe people are still going on about it as much as I'm seeing here on this thread. I'm from the UK and I've never known anyone who thinks about race like a lot of the people do on this thread. I mean, skin colour is just such a strange thing to discuss so.. philosophically.
    Good for you? America has a very long and negative history surrounding race. If we were to just isolate Blacks (because Miles is half black) the Civil Rights act (that outlawed discrimination) didn't pass until 1964. That isn't that long ago, like there are people alive now during the time that law passed, not that long ago.(And if anyone thinks that a law being passed suddenly flipped a switch in Americans brains to make them civil to each other needs a reality check). Besides all of that if race didn't matter then we wouldn't have a problem with racial representation would we? If you don't care about seeing diversity in comics fine. For those of us who rarely see people who look like us as the main character in comics and other forms of media it is a problem. And problems do not go away by ignoring them.

  3. #243
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    I'm just starting to read this thread so I'm hoping someone pointed out the obvious, which is that Peter Parker didn't put in any "work" as a sidekick either when he first got his powers--nope, he just decided to use his powers to earn money and repay his aunt and uncle for all they did for him: "The rest of the world can go hang for all I care!"

    All that matters is if Miles adventures are just as fun or moreso than Peter's original stories or even the present day ones. If some people have a problem because of what he looks like, then that's simply absurd. I'm not referring to his costume but his ethnicity. That kind of insanity is uniquely human as the rest of the animal kingdom seems to be immune to it. That's why I often refer to Humanity as Allah's greatest and potentially worst creation! At least in this little corner of the Universe!

    Looking forward to "catching up"...
    Last edited by LEADER DESSLOK; 01-16-2013 at 09:13 PM.
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  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    I'm just starting to read this thread so I'm hoping someone pointed out the obvious, which is that Peter Parker didn't put in any "work" as a sidekick either when he first got his powers...
    *waves cheerfully*
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  5. #245
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post
    Good for you? America has a very long and negative history surrounding race. If we were to just isolate Blacks (because Miles is half black) the Civil Rights act (that outlawed discrimination) didn't pass until 1964. That isn't that long ago, like there are people alive now during the time that law passed, not that long ago.(And if anyone thinks that a law being passed suddenly flipped a switch in Americans brains to make them civil to each other needs a reality check). Besides all of that if race didn't matter then we wouldn't have a problem with racial representation would we? If you don't care about seeing diversity in comics fine. For those of us who rarely see people who look like us as the main character in comics and other forms of media it is a problem. And problems do not go away by ignoring them.
    I too object to the term "Blaxploitation" and prefer to refer to the genre as "Soul Cinema" for many of these films came out at the height of the R+B era of "Soul" music (I believe James Brown coined that phrase) and these films often contained that style of music for their soundtracks. I saw a documentary about this period and Samuel L. Jackson pointed out that these films provided jobs not just for African Americans but also Latinos and Asians, who in particular benefitted from the success of Bruce Lee, which coincided with the rise of Soul Cinema. Previously, so-called minorities had bit parts as chauffeurs and belhops--which sounds disturbingly familiar!

    Also, I wouldn't condemn America exclusively for her problems. Many of them have to do with the fact that America has been trying to beat Europe at her own game ever since 1776 and perhaps even earlier. I recommend viewing Ric Burns' excellent documentary about the whaling industry; whale oil was literally the fuel which drove America's expansion as a world power! And that DEFINITELY sounds disturbingly familiar, with petroleum taking the place of whale oil.

    Europe has made a lot of social progress but let's never forget her dark history of COLONIALISM, which "colored" her view of the aboriginal people around the globe who stubornly refused the largesse and "civilization" Europe offered them...
    Last edited by LEADER DESSLOK; 01-16-2013 at 09:35 PM.
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  6. #246
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post

    Also, I wouldn't condemn America exclusively for her problems
    . Many of them have to do with the fact that America has been trying to beat Europe at her own game ever since 1776 and perhaps even earlier. I recommend viewing Ric Burns' excellent documentary about the whaling industry; whale oil was literally the fuel which drove America's expansion as a world power! And that DEFINITELY sounds disturbingly familiar, with petroleum taking the place of whale oil.

    Europe has made a lot of social progress but let's never forget her dark history of COLONIALISM, which "colored" her view of the aboriginal people around the globe who stubbornly refused the largesse and "civilization" Europe offered them...
    Not trying to do that at all. Based on stories from the few racial minorities that I know from Europe they have their own battles with racism to fight. But they are better served by speaking about their own lived experience. I'm just focusing on America since the story is set in America. There is also the fact that a big chunk of the posters here are American. Race isn't something that Americans push can push under the rug, no matter how much those who claim to be "color blind" may wish to. For instance, Miles other half, his Latino half. We are still in the middle of dealing with all of the illegal immigration nonsense. How anyone could say with a straight face that race doesn't matter with that mess still floating around is beyond me.
    Last edited by Mecegirl; 01-16-2013 at 11:47 PM.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post
    Good for you? America has a very long and negative history surrounding race. If we were to just isolate Blacks (because Miles is half black) the Civil Rights act (that outlawed discrimination) didn't pass until 1964. That isn't that long ago, like there are people alive now during the time that law passed, not that long ago.(And if anyone thinks that a law being passed suddenly flipped a switch in Americans brains to make them civil to each other needs a reality check). Besides all of that if race didn't matter then we wouldn't have a problem with racial representation would we? If you don't care about seeing diversity in comics fine. For those of us who rarely see people who look like us as the main character in comics and other forms of media it is a problem. And problems do not go away by ignoring them.
    Wait.. I never said anything about America.

    What the problem exactly? That someone isn't your colour? I don't understand that, but to each his own. It's like saying the book is racist towards Polish because there hasn't been a single Polish character featured since the series started.

  8. #248
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    Wait.. I never said anything about America.

    What the problem exactly? That someone isn't your colour? I don't understand that, but to each his own. It's like saying the book is racist towards Polish because there hasn't been a single Polish character featured since the series started.

    1. You brought up the UK and how you can't understand why race is a big deal.

    2. Read and learn.
    http://nalohopkinson.com/2009/18/05/...for_clues.html

    http://www.infinitematrix.net/faq/essays/noles.html

    3. Polish is a nationality not a race.

    4. No one accused the book of being racist.

    5. If someone is content with the way things are good on them. But obviously not all of us are content.
    Last edited by Mecegirl; 01-17-2013 at 08:28 AM.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by SayOcean View Post
    Right? Was aunt may a meth head? So peter can have some edge?
    That could have made him interesting outside of his ability to get with multiple women with his wholesome attitude

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post
    1. You brought up the UK and how you can't understand why race is a big deal.
    And yet, I never said anything bad about the UK. Nor America. In fact, I didn't even mention America or refer to it in anyway.

    There's an awful lot here that you want me to read. Can't you just explain why you think I'm incorrect?

    3. Polish is a nationality not a race.
    I know that. I know a nationality isn't a race But insulting someone's nationality is considered racist. There's been some very long discussions about it on threads similar to this one. But even if you disagree with that, does it really matter. It's still bigotry.

    4. No one accused the book of being racist.
    And that's not what I was complaining about.

    5. If someone is content with the way things are good on them. But obviously not all of us are content.
    You're making this about your mental health versus mine? I'm sorry, but I don't really want to get into that with you. You're obviously upset and I don't want either of us to say anything that may come across as potentially offensive to one another.


    Why don't we start again. You seem to have misunderstood my stance, and tbh I'm not all that sure what you're trying to say either. I'm sorry I didn't have time to read through those links. Perhaps you're able to explain to me where I went wrong on my comment about actual racial stereotyping, without them.

  11. #251

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    I'm not trying to call anyone, especially Brian Michael Bendis, racist. I'm just saying that the material that he seems to be drawing inspiration is outdated and wrong-headed. People who say that the majority of people who dislike the new USM dislike it because of Miles' race need to take a hard look at how Bendis has been portraying people of color in the book.

    I know that there are plenty of racists in the world, and that some of them read comic books. But I firmly believe that race is not the primary issue with why Miles hasn't been a runaway hit with many Ultimate Spider-man readers. It has more to do with how Miles was introduced. It wasn't so much like introducing an exciting new Spider-man as it was like cancelling a beloved book and killing a beloved character to put another book with a bland replacement character in its place. And that new book is slow and boring. I read the first dozen issues and it felt like it was going nowhere, so I gave it up.

    Would I automatically start reading again if they brought Ultimate Peter Parker back? I would give it a shot, but if I wasn't hooked after a few issues, I would drop it again.

  12. #252
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    And yet, I never said anything bad about the UK. Nor America. In fact, I didn't even mention America or refer to it in anyway.
    You said
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    I'm from the UK and I've never known anyone who thinks about race like a lot of the people do on this thread. I mean, skin colour is just such a strange thing to discuss so.. philosophically.
    If you want an answer as to why race is being made into a big deal, America is the answer. America is the context. Things are different here. The people are different here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    There's an awful lot here that you want me to read. Can't you just explain why you think I'm incorrect?
    No I can not . I can't because if I did my answer would be just as long, if not longer, than either one of those essays. It is a matter of lived experience and you have to understand someone elses lived experience to understand the answer to your question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    I know that. I know a nationality isn't a race But insulting someone's nationality is considered racist. There's been some very long discussions about it on threads similar to this one. But even if you disagree with that, does it really matter. It's still bigotry.
    It is still bigotry but it is not racist. Xenophobic, maybe, but not racist. Especially in this case because you mentioned Poland. Any avoidance from a white writer (The majority of mainstream superhero comic book writers are white. It's not a secret.) would be based on culture not race. And if they just happened to not to think of writing a Polish character (the most likely situation) it would be because they aren't Polish so they didn't think about it. I would not say that is a good thing. Personally I would like some more non American characters and think that writers should think outside of their box a bit.

    If you mentioned Nigeria, for this conversation, it would be potentially both xenophobic and racist. These words are not interchangeable, nor are the struggles people face because of them. So no...it is not like saying the book is racist towards the Polish because there hasn't been a single Polish character featured since the series started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    And that's not what I was complaining about.
    No, but you made a comparison to racism as if I said something was racist.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    You're making this about your mental health versus mine? I'm sorry, but I don't really want to get into that with you. You're obviously upset and I don't want either of us to say anything that may come across as potentially offensive to one another.
    What are you talking about? I'm comparing priorities not mental health. By the way, if you want to avoid saying things that are potentially offensive then you should cut the "Your obviously upset" stuff, because that is offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    Why don't we start again. You seem to have misunderstood my stance, and tbh I'm not all that sure what you're trying to say either. I'm sorry I didn't have time to read through those links. Perhaps you're able to explain to me where I went wrong on my comment about actual racial stereotyping, without them.
    My first response to you was giving you an explanation about why race matters so much to people in this conversation. I also do not agree with you about race not mattering. It is a nice thing to say, and I understand what you are trying to say by stating it, but that stance is not practical in today's world. Too much damage has been done for those words to have much meaning. If any of the division could dissipate that easily if would have already. In fact, it is hard to have a discussion about racial stereotyping if one believes that race doesn't matter, because sooner or later you will have to acknowledge race in the discussion. Apparently it matters to enough people that stereotypes based on race exist, and that those stereotypes negatively effect not just fictional characters, but actual people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heroid View Post
    I'm not trying to call anyone, especially Brian Michael Bendis, racist. I'm just saying that the material that he seems to be drawing inspiration is outdated and wrong-headed. People who say that the majority of people who dislike the new USM dislike it because of Miles' race need to take a hard look at how Bendis has been portraying people of color in the book.

    I know that there are plenty of racists in the world, and that some of them read comic books. But I firmly believe that race is not the primary issue with why Miles hasn't been a runaway hit with many Ultimate Spider-man readers. It has more to do with how Miles was introduced. It wasn't so much like introducing an exciting new Spider-man as it was like cancelling a beloved book and killing a beloved character to put another book with a bland replacement character in its place. And that new book is slow and boring. I read the first dozen issues and it felt like it was going nowhere, so I gave it up.

    Would I automatically start reading again if they brought Ultimate Peter Parker back? I would give it a shot, but if I wasn't hooked after a few issues, I would drop it again.
    Did anyone say that the majority of people were? Either way some people did have an issue with Miles' race when the book was announced. Some of them were overt, most used coded language. As far as Bendis writing goes people were saying dodgy things about Miles race before the book came out. I can't remember, so someone will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but did Bendis state in an interview that Miles' dad and Uncle would have criminal pasts? Most people seem to be talking about what folks opinions were of the book and character before it was released, not afterwards.
    Last edited by Mecegirl; 01-18-2013 at 06:53 AM.

  13. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    I'm just starting to read this thread so I'm hoping someone pointed out the obvious, which is that Peter Parker didn't put in any "work" as a sidekick either when he first got his powers--nope, he just decided to use his powers to earn money and repay his aunt and uncle for all they did for him: "The rest of the world can go hang for all I care!"

    Peter wasn't anyone's side-kick, but he didn't use anyone else's name either. Marvel expects people to pick-up "Spiderman" because it's "Spiderman", but all of Spiderman's history is Peter Parker and Miles has basically nothing to do with that history. I think there would be considerable resistance to any brand-new character Marvel tried to pass-off as Spiderman, regardless of race.

    No first-generation hero is anyone's side-kick, but they establish the name and anyone who comes after them and takes over that name ought to have some in-universe connection to give them a right to take over that name from it's original holder. Look at Robin for example. Jason gets voted off the island in "Death in the Family", so what does DC do when they introduce the 3rd Robin? They tie Tim's back-story to Dick and have Dick (not Bruce) give Tim his blessing to wear the costume. Race can't be an issue in this case, but Jason's introduction was still met with resistance because he wasn't Dick and he was taking Dick's place/name. I think Miles' race creates a hot-spot and a focal point for people to fight over, but anyone new character cast as Spiderman would have faced backlash.

  14. #254
    No time for white drama Ballard Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    Marvel expects people to pick-up "Spiderman" because it's "Spiderman", but all of Spiderman's history is Peter Parker and Miles has basically nothing to do with that history.
    Miguel, and the host other Spider-Men called. They'd like to have a word with you and this factual error. Spider-Man is not exclusive to Peter Parker anymore, despite the association to his name.
    Last edited by Ballard Blues; 01-18-2013 at 12:32 PM.
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  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post
    You said


    If you want an answer as to why race is being made into a big deal, America is the answer. America is the context. Things are different here. The people are different here.
    I see what you're saying. Thankyou for the insight. I'll bear it in mind.

    No I can not . I can't because if I did my answer would be just as long, if not longer, than either one of those essays. It is a matter of lived experience and you have to understand someone elses lived experience to understand the answer to your question.
    So is it like an emotional reaction to a particular life experience, presented in a story? It's very difficult to have this discussion with you if I don't know where you're coming from. I'm a pretty perceptive and empathetic person, so I think I'll be able to understand somewhat.

    What I'm trying to say is that we should be logical about this because it's emotions that's cloud logic. Emotional experience may be the most powerful way of understanding something, but in general, all emotion tends to distort accurate understanding. If the American public stereotype the topic of racism as much as you suggest, then I think the majority of their understanding must be greatly influenced by the media they listen to. But I find that a lot of Capatislist countries, (and those of us who usually go on forums) ignore equal rights in favour of concentrating on one particular POC minority. We've become so hung up over concepts such as diversity to the point where it not only becomes pretentious, but also effects our understanding about equality. It shouldn't be about women's rights, Black rights, Polish rights, Spanish rights, it should be about Equal rights. For example, in the UK women now have a lot more rights than men, both legally and socially. This is due to concentrating on a particular minority rather than everybody as a whole. It's been brought about by how people perceive each gender/sex in comparison to the other. Human concepts, non-factual ideas creating fantasy ideas about who deserves what. We should remain practical at all times, and I think equality is the only thing that matters in regards to this topic. Whereas diversity dictates that we must have a tall man from China or a half-German-half-Irish lady, or a Russian with Dwarfism, amongst many, many others, for absolutely everything, whether it's a creative piece of work or anything really. It's become something that's more driven by emotion, by an agenda, rather than logic.

    This then all leads to a stereotypical way of thinking, as we become confined within ideas of how a particular minority is viewed. The way some posters are discussing race on this thread is extremely stereotypical, a way of thinking that creates racism in the first place. Talking about monorities all the time make minorities less emergent to other minorities. We become sectioned into little groups, instead of coming together and ultimately learning about how we are the same. We are all born with the same kind of brain. The only differences are aesthetic things like colour. This is what we should be focusing on rather than focusing on how different we all are. It's completely distorting our understanding of something which should be SO simple. Our minds are the same as eachother when we're born. For example, if I were Black and you were White, nothing about our differences in skin colour would determine anything behavioural. Every person requires the same necessities. Like food and water. And we simply learn how we are taught.

    It is still bigotry but it is not racist. Xenophobic, maybe, but not racist. Especially in this case because you mentioned Poland. Any avoidance from a white writer (The majority of mainstream superhero comic book writers are white. It's not a secret.) would be based on culture not race. And if they just happened to not to think of writing a Polish character (the most likely situation) it would be because they aren't Polish so they didn't think about it. I would not say that is a good thing. Personally I would like some more non American characters and think that writers should think outside of their box a bit.
    I think the UU features more nationalities than most fictional universes. But the characters are always going to be mostly American if the majority of the stories take place in America. This is why I'd like an ongoing title taking place within Tian. The Twin Cities of Tian as a setting, is more extraordinary than any location I can think of.

    If you mentioned Nigeria, for this conversation, it would be potentially both xenophobic and racist. These words are not interchangeable, nor are the struggles people face because of them. So no...it is not like saying the book is racist towards the Polish because there hasn't been a single Polish character featured since the series started.
    I was making an assumption about what you're trying to say. You tell me I'm wrong but you won't really say how. So I'm just guessing so I can try and work out where you're coming from. And whilst I ask you questions - because I have no idea why you've been having a go at me - I'm also attempting to articulate what I was originally saying, a little better, because you're having a go at me about what I said before, and I have no idea why.

    No, but you made a comparison to racism as if I said something was racist.
    How the hell did you come to that conclusion? I wasn't responding to anyone in particular. I didn't even quote you. I was actually talking about what Heroid said a few pages back about stereotypes like Blacksploitation and using distorted human concepts like 'politically correct'. (Because politicians are very rarely correct about anything!) I then explained how so many posters on this thread have a very distorted way of thinking about race/colour and then expressed how odd I found how posters have been discussing colour so philosophically. I wasn't referring to you at all. I don't even know what you said.

    I honestly haven't noticed you being racist. I really have no idea whether you have been or not.

    What are you talking about? I'm comparing priorities not mental health.
    I thought it was about how contempt you are in comparison to me. No?

    By the way, if you want to avoid saying things that are potentially offensive then you should cut the "Your obviously upset" stuff, because that is offensive.
    You're right. I'm sorry about that. I'll take your advice and be sure to remember it in future. :)

    My first response to you was giving you an explanation about why race matters so much to people in this conversation. I also do not agree with you about race not mattering. It is a nice thing to say, and I understand what you are trying to say by stating it, but that stance is not practical in today's world.
    Actually, remaining practical, discussing possible alternatives and solutions, rather than complaining about problems with emotional responses, is exactly how I'vw approached this topic. I feel like I'm one of the only posters on here thinking logically about all this and I want people to stop following everything the media says. Excuse my language but the media is mostly bullshit.

    Too much damage has been done for those words to have much meaning. If any of the division could dissipate that easily if would have already. In fact, it is hard to have a discussion about racial stereotyping if one believes that race doesn't matter, because sooner or later you will have to acknowledge race in the discussion. Apparently it matters to enough people that stereotypes based on race exist, and that those stereotypes negatively effect not just fictional characters, but actual people.
    Can't we just ignore the concepts, the stereotypes, all that rubbish and AT LEAST start DISCUSSING the topic more logically. It's just a discussion after all. And the added emotion will not make anything any clearer as to what needs to be done. It's equality that we need to focus on. Not how many different minorities we can fit in every book and every aspect of life. Absolute diversity is impractical. It's like saying we need more Asian swimmers in the Olympics, or at least some obese ones who smoke and like listening to heavy metal. It can only lead to more and more pretentiousness. In fact, it makes achieving equality all the more difficult.

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