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  1. #136
    Junior Member toddx77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    I honestly think that more people would be okay with Miles if he was introduced before Peter died or if Peter was still alive and powerless and served as a mentor to him, like Bruce and Terry. A lot of the anger towards him is based on race, and some people dont like him because Peter died and he was replaced so quickly. I think more fans wanted some kind of closure (which is what I was hoping Spider-Men would do) but they didn't get that.

    I really don't like it when people say "You can just read 616 Peter." 616 Peter and Ultimate Peter are two different versions of the same person. They're only similar on the surface, It would be like telling a Power Girl fan "You can just read Supergirl, they're both Kara Zor-El." Most PG fans didn't know if we were going to see her again before World's finest, and even after people are still angry.

    Personally speaking, I wanted to like Miles. I thought that a Spider-Man who looked like me was a really cool thing. Its a shame that we have to justify his existence because he's a black male lead, most of the time its just Black males, not women or other minorities.

    After being skeptical at first, because I liked Ultimate Peter too, I read the first trade with Miles, since Bendis's work reads better in trade. I didn't think that it was bad, but it didn't wow me. I really wanted to jump on the Miles fan train, but its just not happening for me, and that's fine. I still think its good that he has a book, even though I'm not into it.
    I have always said that is the biggest reason for the hate and Marvel could have introduced the character better I thought. Peter hadn't even died yet and we learned of a black/mexican boy replacing him. Peter dies, Miles makes a quick appearance in Ultimate fallout 4, then appears in Ultimate Spider-Man. At first I had a problem with Miles because for starters I loved Peter Parker and then he dies only to be replaced by a black kid. Now that may sound a bit racist and ignorant at first, but to me I felt that way because we live in a world that tends to force political correctness on us so to see Peter die and out of no where Miles appear made me feel like Marvel was only adding Miles to pander to black and mexican readers who would not read Ultimate Spider-Man because he is white. However after I started reading Ultimate Spider-Man with Miles in it I really liked the character. When I got to know him I had no problem with him and that is where I think Marvel went wrong. Marvel should have never told us about Miles before Peter died. Our first glance of him should have been in Ultimate Fallout 4 and Marvel still shouldn't have said anything and just let us absorb him on our own.

    Or Marvel could have introduced Miles earlier so we could get used to him. Either have the Spider bite him and just have him be like Spider-Woman where she wasn't a side kick but still their own hero then have him take up the mantle of the new Spider-Man. Or Marvel could have used Ultimate Ben Riley more through out the years and then made him the new Spider-Man. It seems to often now Marvel and DC are trying to hype up every major thing they do for publicity and that is a problem when it comes to stuff like this.

  2. #137
    Be Right Back... Spike-X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddx77 View Post
    At first I had a problem with Miles because for starters I loved Peter Parker and then he dies only to be replaced by a black kid. Now that may sound a bit racist and ignorant at first, but to me I felt that way because we live in a world that tends to force political correctness on us so to see Peter die and out of no where Miles appear made me feel like Marvel was only adding Miles to pander to black and mexican readers
    If, whenever a character is introduced who is non-white (or non-heterosexual, or non-Christian), your first thoughts are about political correctness and pandering, then yeah, that's a lil' bit racist.

    But hey, you got over it. That's what matters.
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  3. #138
    Junior Member toddx77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike-X View Post
    If, whenever a character is introduced who is non-white (or non-heterosexual, or non-Christian), your first thoughts are about political correctness and pandering, then yeah, that's a lil' bit racist.

    But hey, you got over it. That's what matters.
    I wouldn't consider that racist, a bit ignorant sure, but as I said we live in a world where political correctness affect us all. Like I said it was all in how Marvel introduced the character. Peter wasn't even dead yet and we then see a half black half mexican kid who looks like Obama taking over as Spider-Man then ya that made me think for a minute. If Marvel just would have let us see Miles in Ultimate Fallout issue 4 first then in Ultimate Spider-Man it would not have felt that way. It is not a problem of non-heterosexual, non-christians, and non-white characters getting created it is the fact Marvel and DC feel the need to announce them before they appear in the comics and make a big deal out of them that draw these accusations of political correctness.

  4. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Even the best writers begin to wear out their welcome eventually.
    Exactly. And Bendis lasted longer on the character than Stan Lee did, but it's past time for him to go.

  5. #140
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    Thats racist against the racists!

    Humans are catagorical, were specifically wired to be wary of anything too different from us. Just wait till the sentient slime monsters or 800 foot tall bug aliens land and try to integrate into our culture.

    I kinda like racism, its bullcrap to try and force everyone to get along and agree based on some nonfunctional touchey feely belief. Just for fun sometime ask some random asians what they think of blacks, or random blacks what they think of hispanics, etc. Unless your on a school campus or some regional island of liberalism the answers will probably offend you. The country is more divided now than it was in the 50s. Maybe you can pin it on economics, but everybody knows what neighborhoods are white, and what ones are black, and asian, and hispanic. It just works out that way despite a HUGE amount of money, laws and social engineering spent to change it.

    I remember being amazed when I first learned the racial pecking orders between asian countries/nationalities. Every things soo black and white in America that I never considered that there are alot of Chinese that dislike the Japanese and vice versa, and then both had unflattering things to say about Koreans. Humans are hilarious.

    Maybe Im just rebellious and think that when everybody tells you to do something, or think a certain way.... do the opposite.

    I havent read much of Miles Spidey yet but I plan to buy more and I like what I've read so far.

  6. #141
    Be Right Back... Spike-X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddx77 View Post
    we live in a world where political correctness affect us all.
    In what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by toddx77 View Post
    It is not a problem of non-heterosexual, non-christians, and non-white characters getting created it is the fact Marvel and DC feel the need to announce them before they appear in the comics and make a big deal out of them that draw these accusations of political correctness.
    They announce big events happening in their comics all the time. Why is it automatically 'political correctness' when it involves a non-white character?
    Christ, do I have to do all the thinking for the entire fucking Internet? - Michael P

  7. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kymeric View Post
    Thats racist against the racists!

    Humans are catagorical, were specifically wired to be wary of anything too different from us. Just wait till the sentient slime monsters or 800 foot tall bug aliens land and try to integrate into our culture.

    I kinda like racism, its bullcrap to try and force everyone to get along and agree based on some nonfunctional touchey feely belief. Just for fun sometime ask some random asians what they think of blacks, or random blacks what they think of hispanics, etc. Unless your on a school campus or some regional island of liberalism the answers will probably offend you. The country is more divided now than it was in the 50s. Maybe you can pin it on economics, but everybody knows what neighborhoods are white, and what ones are black, and asian, and hispanic. It just works out that way despite a HUGE amount of money, laws and social engineering spent to change it.

    I remember being amazed when I first learned the racial pecking orders between asian countries/nationalities. Every things soo black and white in America that I never considered that there are alot of Chinese that dislike the Japanese and vice versa, and then both had unflattering things to say about Koreans. Humans are hilarious.

    Maybe Im just rebellious and think that when everybody tells you to do something, or think a certain way.... do the opposite.

    I havent read much of Miles Spidey yet but I plan to buy more and I like what I've read so far.
    People are basically the same when you get down to it. There are nice, insecure, angry, sadistic, loving, indifferent, boring, eccentric, and anything else you could think of people everywhere. The only difference is the land around us, how thats impacted the people that lived before them and what that means to ones surrounding as they develop.

    Dehumanizing people by treating them as something non-human, as something you can determine by demographic alone is inherently wrong and has lead to many problems over time.

    Peoples problems between one another based on race stem from an unfamiliar mind's ignorant perception of one group being reenforced by constant simplifying of that group as acting in that way.

    Of course I can't tell you or anybody else what to think, I can only tell you why i believe in something and what consequences can come from doing certain things.

    I'm a believer that the point in which somebody can be told to stop doing something is the point where their ability to do something is hindering another's. Common reason should tell us how to determine what to value more, and to what scale of importance it should hold.

    Race is a big one all right, people have done heinous things based solely off of what one is, and its up to everybody to be responsible enough to not let convenient perception run their view of other human beings. The effects could be terrifying, or at least it would help plant the seeds for something terrifying.

    We can't let ourselves say "well this is the way it is", thats irresponsibility that could lead to something damning. I understand your fascination with how people treat one another based on race, but don't let that keep you from making judgment based on character rather than demographic.

    WE are categorial, but we should know what it means to be so with one another.

    Please don't accept racism as a fact of life, reject it as an adverse side effect.

    Oh and please do read Ultimate Comics Spider-man.

    THe arc with his uncle is a favorite of mine.

    Or if you want to do the opposite, please don't do all that.
    Steve Rogers: You ready to follow Captain America into the jaws of death?
    James Barnes: Hell, no! The little guy from Brooklyn who was too dumb not to run away from a fight. I'm following him."

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connect200 View Post
    Miles Morales for those who don't know what the person that replaced Spider-Man when Peter Parker was killed by the Green Goblin in the Ultimate Universe. People didn't like the idea. Now I can see the hate for Miles Morales. First off, he didn't deserve to be Spider-Man because he didn't "put in work". For those who also don't know what "put in work" is it is the basically working hard as a sidekick to eventually take over as a established Superhero. I can name plenty of sidekicks that replace known superheros. Wally West replaced Barry Allen as the Flash and Dick Grayson replaced Brucie Wayne as Batman. The most common thing about Wally West and Dick Grayson was the fact that they were sidekicks who had experience in fighting crime. I think in my person opinion that people won't hate Miles Morals or have a problem with him if he had been the sidekick of Peter Parker. Miles Morales was just thrown into being Spider-Man which caught many people off guard. Myself included. I don't think it was a race issue. It was the fact of how soon Miles Morals became the replacement without no experience. Its like a person out of college become the head man in charge in a company without prior experience.


    If you have anything to add or discus add it.
    I didn't bother to read 10 pages, so I apologize in advance if this has already been said but this is about the weakest argument I've ever heard. "Put in the work?" Really?

    By your logic, Peter Parker didn't deserve to be Spider-Man as he didn't put in the work before being bitten by a Spider. Captain America didn't put int he work as he was a scrawny waste who couldn't make it in the military without the super serum. Johnny Storm didn't put in the work as was just following Reed Richards' lead.

  9. #144
    Veteran Member Sonofspam's Avatar
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    I don't know it seems to me that making a formerly white character black is mostly done for controversy sakes tho i'm not saying that's the only reason but it does stir up the fanbase and get people talking.

  10. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomSlick View Post
    I didn't bother to read 10 pages, so I apologize in advance if this has already been said but this is about the weakest argument I've ever heard. "Put in the work?" Really?

    By your logic, Peter Parker didn't deserve to be Spider-Man as he didn't put in the work before being bitten by a Spider. Captain America didn't put int he work as he was a scrawny waste who couldn't make it in the military without the super serum. Johnny Storm didn't put in the work as was just following Reed Richards' lead.
    I think what he's saying is that Miles came out of nowhere, Deus Ex Machina-style, to become Spider-man. It was like, "Oh no! Spider-man is dead! What will we do for a Spider-man now?" And Miles just happened to be there already with spider powers. Except no one knew he was there already. He just was. Out of nowhere. He wasn't set up. He wasn't foreshadowed. He wasn't vetted to the fans to win them over before he took over. He was just there on a creative and/or merchandising whim. If Marvel really wanted Miles to succeed, they did everything wrong.

    They pushed away a lot of die-hard fans. I think USM will continue to lose sales. I'm not sure that even the return of Ultimate Peter Parker would be enough to revive the book at this point. But that's only my opinion. Things could turn around maybe, if they get a new writer.

  11. #146
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    Everything bleeds sales hardly exclusive.

    Still lets not pretend race had nothing to with this.
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  12. #147
    No time for white drama Ballard Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroid View Post
    I think what he's saying is that Miles came out of nowhere, Deus Ex Machina-style, to become Spider-man. It was like, "Oh no! Spider-man is dead! What will we do for a Spider-man now?" And Miles just happened to be there already with spider powers. Except no one knew he was there already. He just was. Out of nowhere. He wasn't set up. He wasn't foreshadowed. He wasn't vetted to the fans to win them over before he took over. He was just there on a creative and/or merchandising whim. If Marvel really wanted Miles to succeed, they did everything wrong.

    They pushed away a lot of die-hard fans. I think USM will continue to lose sales. I'm not sure that even the return of Ultimate Peter Parker would be enough to revive the book at this point. But that's only my opinion. Things could turn around maybe, if they get a new writer.
    No, he's saying Miles never deserved to be Spider-Man because he wasn't somebody's errand boy, most especially with that crap terminology "Put in Work" and by that logic, neither did Peter Parker. The argument is flawed logic from the get-go.

    Except that Miles wasn't out of no where. Marvel practically announced 'New Spider-Man" before Peter Parker was cold in his grave. How he appeared in the narrative itself is a note of practical irrelevance considering his set up, which took its bloody time establishing him as a character and the right to take up the mantle of Spider-Man after teasing his presence in "Ultimate Fallout". So, yeah, Miles wasn't a Deus Ex Machina in the least, considering the first couple panels in his issue were focused on Norman Osborne and the spider that would eventually bite Miles and the following dealt with his life situation, his personality and family and friends. Boy was set up in every way he needed to be. Foreshadowing wasn't necessary, they didn't need your opinion on his creation or necessity at all considering they didn't ask you about the end of Peter's arc and most certainly didn't need to play couch games to get your approval.

    And as JaggedFel stated, a decrease in sales is hardly a symptom exclusive to Ultimate Comics Spider-Man, not when every other Ultimate Comics title is on the same boat.
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  13. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballard Blues View Post
    No, he's saying Miles never deserved to be Spider-Man because he wasn't somebody's errand boy, most especially with that crap terminology "Put in Work" and by that logic, neither did Peter Parker. The argument is flawed logic from the get-go.

    Except that Miles wasn't out of no where. Marvel practically announced 'New Spider-Man" before Peter Parker was cold in his grave. How he appeared in the narrative itself is a note of practical irrelevance considering his set up, which took its bloody time establishing him as a character and the right to take up the mantle of Spider-Man after teasing his presence in "Ultimate Fallout". So, yeah, Miles wasn't a Deus Ex Machina in the least, considering the first couple panels in his issue were focused on Norman Osborne and the spider that would eventually bite Miles and the following dealt with his life situation, his personality and family and friends. Boy was set up in every way he needed to be. Foreshadowing wasn't necessary, they didn't need your opinion on his creation or necessity at all considering they didn't ask you about the end of Peter's arc and most certainly didn't need to play couch games to get your approval.

    And as JaggedFel stated, a decrease in sales is hardly a symptom exclusive to Ultimate Comics Spider-Man, not when every other Ultimate Comics title is on the same boat.
    Wow. You certainly take offense easily.

    Miles wasn't set up at all, until the change was made. He DID come out of nowhere. He should have been introduced in some capacity beforehand. Bringing in a character like that out of nowhere is just bad writing. It wreaks of editorial interference. I still don't believe this idea originated with Bendis. I still think it was Quesada's idea. I know enough people in the industry to know how that works, and that Bendis wouldn't admit it.

    Miles should not be Spider-man. I think his sales numbers are showing it.

  14. #149
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    I suppose you are making the same argument for Kid Nova right.

    Still he was introduced before whether u enjoyed the execution of not.
    Last edited by JaggedFel; 12-23-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroid View Post
    I think what he's saying is that Miles came out of nowhere, Deus Ex Machina-style, to become Spider-man. It was like, "Oh no! Spider-man is dead! What will we do for a Spider-man now?" And Miles just happened to be there already with spider powers. Except no one knew he was there already. He just was. Out of nowhere. He wasn't set up. He wasn't foreshadowed. He wasn't vetted to the fans to win them over before he took over. He was just there on a creative and/or merchandising whim. If Marvel really wanted Miles to succeed, they did everything wrong.

    They pushed away a lot of die-hard fans. I think USM will continue to lose sales. I'm not sure that even the return of Ultimate Peter Parker would be enough to revive the book at this point. But that's only my opinion. Things could turn around maybe, if they get a new writer.

    What are the sales like? I assume they're down but curious by how far. Personally I'm really enjoying Ultimate Spidey. I gave up on the Ultimates and X-Men. The writing was atrocious although I have heard good things about X-Men now that Wood is at the helm.

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