Would Dick Grayson be a good permanent replacement for Bruce Wayne?

[B. Kuwanger]

It's amazing how hit and miss Winnick is.

I've never been sure the exact difference between good Winnick and terrible Winnick, even when I've had a strong like or dislike of the work in question.

Like, that's the funniest page ever, and I feel as though it would be less enjoyable if it were written more intelligently.

[Hehey]

Supes doesn't understand. Batman is a symbol. It's like DKR. Batman will live on, even if Bruce does not. I have some crazy idea that for the 100th or something anniversary of Batman, they will perma-kill Bruce and Dick will finally take over for good. It will be great to see Dick be Batman for more than 3 years. He has potential to be a very different type of Batman. IT would shake things up. But they would need to make Bruce's death PERMA! Unless of course they have Bruce take over the Alfred/Oracle spot. That would be very Batman Beyond-esque and quite cool.

First of all Batman died in DKR (the movie right?) as far as everyone in Gotham knew, they built a friggin statue in his supposed dead honor, sure we knew the guy named robin would continue fighting crime or whatever but it not necessarily true that he would have done so as Batman.

And second, he can be different from Batman, by not being Batman. You know, some of us like Batman as he is, if i wanted to read about someone who was a different kind of hero than Batman then i would read another title with a guy like that, like say Nightwing, but i don't, cause im not interested in someone whose that different from Batman. Killing of Bruce so that dick can act like Nightwng in Batman's costume is ridiculous, he can be a different kind of hero by being a different hero/, there's no need to change Batman into some other kind of hero.

[Coal Tiger]

Superman disagrees with this thread

[horrible cliche machine]

Oh my god, he wrote Superman spouting the "Bruce Wayne is the disguise" fallacy. How did this get published?

[zomg]

After reading the thread title I thought I was back in 2009, ahh the memories.

[melkorjunior]

Yep, Superman/Batman #76 by Winnick.

Wow...what a misguided idea that was from Winnick.

[SicSexSix]

Winnick's high point is what he did with Black Mask. Took a generic, mediocre villain & turned him into a satirical crime boss, only for Tony Daniel to eff him up.

[R0NIN]

Oh my god, he wrote Superman spouting the "Bruce Wayne is the disguise" fallacy. How did this get published?

It's not a fallacy. The Nolan movies aren't the comics. They did their own thing. In the DC universe Bruce Wayne IS the disguise. He's a tool that Batman uses to continue being Batman. Superman is exactly right in those panels. Though maybe it could've been written better perhaps.

[Coal Tiger]

It's not a fallacy. The Nolan movies aren't the comics. They did their own thing. In the DC universe Bruce Wayne IS the disguise. He's a tool that Batman uses to continue being Batman. Superman is exactly right in those panels. Though maybe it could've been written better perhaps.

Nope. Bruce Wayne might pretend to play up the "billionaire playboy" aspect of his personality to throw off people trying to figure out who Batman is, but Batman is also a creation of Bruce Wayne. It's all in Year One. "Father, I shall become a bat" makes it pretty clear. It's his creation, and even in the early 90's Bruce recognized that the preservation of Batman as an idea is more important than the preservation of Batman the person. It's grown beyond him to the point where there must be a Batman in Gotham City, even if Bruce can't wear the costume.

"Bruce Wayne is really the mask" is a nice one-line soundbite for hacky writers to make Batman sound dark and edgy, but it's a little more complex than that.

[Godlike13]

And lets not forget, it wasn't just about keeping Batman alive, but Batman and Robin alive. "You're wrong! Batman and Robin will never die!"

[LoneNecromancer]

Nope. Bruce Wayne might pretend to play up the "billionaire playboy" aspect of his personality to throw off people trying to figure out who Batman is, but Batman is also a creation of Bruce Wayne. It's all in Year One. "Father, I shall become a bat" makes it pretty clear. It's his creation, and even in the early 90's Bruce recognized that the preservation of Batman as an idea is more important than the preservation of Batman the person. It's grown beyond him to the point where there must be a Batman in Gotham City, even if Bruce can't wear the costume.

"Bruce Wayne is really the mask" is a nice one-line soundbite for hacky writers to make Batman sound dark and edgy, but it's a little more complex than that.

That, exactly.

Oh my god, he wrote Superman spouting the "Bruce Wayne is the disguise" fallacy. How did this get published?

Winick also wrote the opposite, that Superman is a disguise while Clark Kent is real, something that's also wrong.

[coveredinbees]

Superman disagrees with this thread

Golly! I like the panel layout anyway.

[Red Lotus]

See, I liked the Dick as Batman period more than any other time in Batman

Outside of Nightwing I dont pick up any DC books. But Dick time as Batman I was picking up around 5 books a month. I think that time was great and Batman and Robin ranks as one of the best series I have ever gotten.

[Red Lotus]

See, I liked the Dick as Batman period more than any other time in Batman, but nobody is willing to let Bruce go, including me. Killing Bruce doesn't work because he's a fixture and yes, stuff like being the paranoid hero spying on Superman and Wonder Woman is the way to go - you just can't see Dick doing that.

Bruce Wayne has to be around. But that doesn't mean he has to be Batman. Dick as Batman is way more fun. So what's the next step? You can basically ape Captain America - the last few years of Batman and Cap have been eerily parallel anyway - you have Dick Grayson as Batman, making sure the Batman role is owned by someone who deserves it, and even who redeems the concept and symbol of Batman in a pure positive way within the DC Universe ...

So can we believe that Bruce would step aside from Batman, retire and let Dick take over? Yes, I can believe that. Hell, it was the ending of the mainstream ultra-popular Dark Knight movies, "the collective pop consciousness" could get behind it - we'd still of course have out-of-continuity and "Legends" style stories featuring Bruce as Batman, regardless.

So you can take that Bat out of Bruce Wayne, but you can't take the Bruce Wayne out of the DCU. Even if he retired from being Batman, which a lot of us could buy, you just can't believe that the guy, the workaholic, driven, slightly paranoid, spying, nosy guy, would have anything resembling a "quiet retirement". That's the point of Bruce Wayne - he just can't let things die, or even let things go. He'd still be operating. Even Batman Beyond, where he's not "Batman" anymore, he's one-half of the operation, his voice and shadow oppressive.

Not quite "Bruce Wayne: Super-Soldier", but even retired from Batman, Bruce Wayne would be carrying a solo title, plus a flashback/Legends style title where he's still Batman, plus he'd be turning up in a half-dozen other titles, whether as Bruce Wayne or in a shady role keeping an eye on things. Would he take on another super-heroic identity, a new symbol? Possibly. I'm hard-pressed to think of any ideas for what he might choose this morning, but just like Steve Rogers did, he'd still be around.

A more fun Batman, and Bruce still being Bruce? Yeah, there's a compromise there wherein we could have our cake and eat it, too. It is feasible. Not terribly likely, but certainly feasible.

I'd read "Bruce Wayne, The Millionaire Martial Arts Adventurer". Throw in Richard Dragon and up the Kung-Fu quotient, I'm there.

Superman disagrees with this thread

Superman being drunk during this scene is the only explanation for this behaviour.

I have this. The book pretty much ended with Superman saying Dick will be a great Batman

[Vil_Dee]

Hell no. All those stories people are pointing out, Black Mirror, Batman and Robin . . .are you telling me those stories were good because Dick was Batman? Nope, they were good, and he just happened to be there. He was like the least interesting thing about those stories. He was overshadowed by practically everyone. Good God, I couldn't tolerate him being Batman permanently. It would be like when Dick Sargent replaced Dick York in Bewitched.

[Claude]

Nope. Bruce Wayne might pretend to play up the "billionaire playboy" aspect of his personality to throw off people trying to figure out who Batman is, but Batman is also a creation of Bruce Wayne. It's all in Year One. "Father, I shall become a bat" makes it pretty clear. It's his creation, and even in the early 90's Bruce recognized that the preservation of Batman as an idea is more important than the preservation of Batman the person. It's grown beyond him to the point where there must be a Batman in Gotham City, even if Bruce can't wear the costume.

"Bruce Wayne is really the mask" is a nice one-line soundbite for hacky writers to make Batman sound dark and edgy, but it's a little more complex than that.

In fairness, it's been pretty consistently what Superman believes regardless of whether it's true or not. He says it in "For Tomorrow" as well.

Always thought that was a character point worth persuing - that Clark Kent, who in many ways discovered that "Superman/Kal-el" was who he really was, would take the position that "the hero" identity was the real one.