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  1. #76
    Senior Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    In fairness, it's been pretty consistently what Superman believes regardless of whether it's true or not. He says it in "For Tomorrow" as well.

    Always thought that was a character point worth persuing - that Clark Kent, who in many ways discovered that "Superman/Kal-el" was who he really was, would take the position that "the hero" identity was the real one.
    See, I don't really buy that either. As far as I can tell, there are 3 aspects to Superman: There's Superman the hero, Clark Kent the reporter, and Clark Kent the farmboy. I think the only real one is Clark Kent the farmboy, since that's how he was raised. I also don't think that Superman would believe that Bruce Wayne was a mask. Aside from Dick Grayson and Alfred, no one should know Batman better than Superman. In the previous continuity they've been friends for more than 10 years.

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Connect200 View Post
    Lets step back and forget about the new 52 done by DC Comics. Lets ask our self. Would Dick Grayson be a good replacement for Bruce Wayne? Can Dick Grayson fill Bruce Wayne's shoes like Wally West filled Barry Allen's shoes as The Flash.
    No one should permanently replace Bruce IMHO however I think Grayson is the ideal stand-in.
    "It is wrong to assume that art needs the spectator in order to be. The film runs on without any eyes. The spectator cannot exist without it. It ensures his existence." -- James Douglas Morrison

  3. #78
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    That, exactly.



    Winick also wrote the opposite, that Superman is a disguise while Clark Kent is real, something that's also wrong.
    Maybe he wrote that cause since after Crisis that's how it's been. Check out a Superman comic from Man of Steel until pre flashpoint.
    And yeah Bruce made the identity of Batman up because obviously no one names their kid Batman. That's just a weak argument. Bruce identifies himself as Batman. Who he is in his natural state and around people who know the secret is Batman. Not Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne is just his legal name.

    People try and say otherwise by spouting one or two stories that say otherwise, but those two stories pale in comparison to the hundreds if not thousands that show Batman is the real character and Bruce is the mask.
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  4. #79
    Junior Member kakitamike's Avatar
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    I'd love to see anyone else as Batman. I always thought part of the mythos of Batman was the whole him being a symbol/idea, that he could be anyone. But that's not true at all. Batman is Bruce Wayne. There's been a little time off, but he's always the same in the end.
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  5. #80
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vil_Dee View Post
    Hell no. All those stories people are pointing out, Black Mirror, Batman and Robin . . .are you telling me those stories were good because Dick was Batman? Nope, they were good, and he just happened to be there. He was like the least interesting thing about those stories. He was overshadowed by practically everyone. Good God, I couldn't tolerate him being Batman permanently. It would be like when Dick Sargent replaced Dick York in Bewitched.
    Neither of those stories would have worked with Bruce as Batman, so yeah I'd say he contributed to those stories being good.

    Quote Originally Posted by R0NIN View Post
    Bruce identifies himself as Batman. Who he is in his natural state and around people who know the secret is Batman. Not Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne is just his legal name.
    When was the last time this was specifically stated? I know one of the larger points of Morrison's run was bringing Bruce back as a character (as more than just the facade), but I'm wondering if there were any recent bat books that disagreed with that.

    Personally, I can't stand the whole "Batman is the real guy, Bruce is the mask thing" and prefer both Batman and Bruce Wayne (the billionaire playboy) to be the masks of Bruce Wayne (the guy who created Batman)
    Last edited by Whip Whirlwind; 12-11-2012 at 08:20 AM.

  6. #81
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    I think Tim is the better spiritual successor to Bruce. He has a more similar style and background. I enjoyed Dick as Batman but was glad to have him as Nightwing again.

    Dick was never comfortable being Batman and that made sense.
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  7. #82
    Member Tobey's Avatar
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    I always thought out of the robin's Dick was the obvious choice (taking out the nightwing question) but wasn't Dck's batman always drawn slimmer?

  8. #83
    The Alpha and The Omega Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobey View Post
    I always thought out of the robin's Dick was the obvious choice (taking out the nightwing question) but wasn't Dck's batman always drawn slimmer?
    I think a lot of the artist drew him slimmer, appropriately, but there were exceptions.

  9. #84
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    Neither of those stories would have worked with Bruce as Batman, so yeah I'd say he contributed to those stories being good.



    When was the last time this was specifically stated? I know one of the larger points of Morrison's run was bringing Bruce back as a character (as more than just the facade), but I'm wondering if there were any recent bat books that disagreed with that.

    Personally, I can't stand the whole "Batman is the real guy, Bruce is the mask thing" and prefer both Batman and Bruce Wayne (the billionaire playboy) to be the masks of Bruce Wayne (the guy who created Batman)
    It doesn't have to be stated. You need everything spelled out for you? Batman's entire career is written that way with the exception of a few stories. Just look at how he acts when he's around those that know his secret. He still acts like Batman. Court of Owls and punching Disk Grayson who he's known and trusted for years? That's a Batman move not a Bruce Wayne one. You can hate the idea all you want, but it's part of the character. It's actually intrinsic and vital to the character. It's Batman 101. Regardless of how Nolan butchered it.
    Last edited by R0NIN; 12-11-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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  10. #85
    Chirpy And Cheerful Claude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    See, I don't really buy that either. As far as I can tell, there are 3 aspects to Superman: There's Superman the hero, Clark Kent the reporter, and Clark Kent the farmboy. I think the only real one is Clark Kent the farmboy, since that's how he was raised.
    Oh, I agree that's how it actually is. I just find the idea of Superman believing differently to be interesting.

    But, to be honest, I quite like it when there's very little between the three of them. It's just that when he's trying to do what's right, Farm Boy Clark will use all the powers available to him as a farm boy, Reporter Clark would use the full extent of his skills, and Superman would use the full extent of his powers. But beyond that, personality wise, I quite like Clark to be as similar to Superman as an off-duty cop is to his uniformed self.

    I also don't think that Superman would believe that Bruce Wayne was a mask. Aside from Dick Grayson and Alfred, no one should know Batman better than Superman. In the previous continuity they've been friends for more than 10 years.
    True. But as part of The Trinity for much of that time. With Wonder Woman, who was definately Wonder Woman first - personally and professionally - and Superman was never really anything but perfectly at ease with Being Superman.... I can imagine it getting to the point where Superman felt he knew "Batman" better than "Bruce". In terms of their role, rather than their personality.

  11. #86
    Viva la Cyclops Red Lotus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vil_Dee View Post
    Hell no. All those stories people are pointing out, Black Mirror, Batman and Robin . . .are you telling me those stories were good because Dick was Batman? Nope, they were good, and he just happened to be there. He was like the least interesting thing about those stories. He was overshadowed by practically everyone. Good God, I couldn't tolerate him being Batman permanently. It would be like when Dick Sargent replaced Dick York in Bewitched.
    Batman and Robin worked because of the dynamic of Grayson and Damian. Black Mirror was dealing with how James jr is a Black Mirror of Dick Grayson.
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  12. #87
    just does things Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Lotus View Post
    Batman and Robin worked because of the dynamic of Grayson and Damian. Black Mirror was dealing with how James jr is a Black Mirror of Dick Grayson.
    The dynamic between Dick and Damian in B&R? You mean the way Damian started out as an arrogant, self-absorbed brat who eventually begins to respect and feel affection for Dick through the course of the series? And how is this different from the Bruce and Damien B&R? It's the same flipping thing! Damian starts off like an arrogant, self-absorbed brat who eventually begins to respect and feel affection for Bruce through the course of the series! Dick was a nothing but a pair of throw pillows in B&R. It was a Damian/Joker/Hurt/Pyg jamboree and Dick wasn't invited.

    And one of Black Mirror's elements could have been how JJ was the black mirror of Dicky, but that doesn't change the fact that he was overshadowed by Jim Gordon who seemed like the star of that story. I mean could you imagine Jim coming to Bruce and telling him he thinks his son might be a serial killer, and him responding with the same limp shoulder shrugging response. "Oh you think your son's a serial killer. . .oh ok, I guess I can have a chat with him, where I will stare into his dead serial killer eyes and listen to his creepy, flat not normal way of speaking and come to the conclusion that "eh, i don't know."

  13. #88
    The power of the rainbow. jade_nova's Avatar
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    Yes until Tim Drake can take over then Dick can go back and do his thing.
    "Here's to me and here's to you. If we should ever disagree, then here's to me and to hell with you," William O. Astle 1905-2002

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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vil_Dee View Post
    The dynamic between Dick and Damian in B&R? You mean the way Damian started out as an arrogant, self-absorbed brat who eventually begins to respect and feel affection for Dick through the course of the series? And how is this different from the Bruce and Damien B&R? It's the same flipping thing! Damian starts off like an arrogant, self-absorbed brat who eventually begins to respect and feel affection for Bruce through the course of the series! Dick was a nothing but a pair of throw pillows in B&R. It was a Damian/Joker/Hurt/Pyg jamboree and Dick wasn't invited.

    And one of Black Mirror's elements could have been how JJ was the black mirror of Dicky, but that doesn't change the fact that he was overshadowed by Jim Gordon who seemed like the star of that story. I mean could you imagine Jim coming to Bruce and telling him he thinks his son might be a serial killer, and him responding with the same limp shoulder shrugging response. "Oh you think your son's a serial killer. . .oh ok, I guess I can have a chat with him, where I will stare into his dead serial killer eyes and listen to his creepy, flat not normal way of speaking and come to the conclusion that "eh, i don't know."
    Damian has always respected his father, he almost worship him.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by jade_nova View Post
    Yes until Tim Drake can take over then Dick can go back and do his thing.
    Except Tim will not really be Batman, but will call himself the Scarlet Rodent out of respect to Bruce's memory.

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