Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 94
  1. #76
    Junior Member Alatheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    168

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDracul View Post
    To say the Greek gods should be excused for their actions is to say the Justice League is wrong to oppose Darksied as he too is a god.
    "Actions" is the operative word. Actions do not equal morality.
    Pluto, you'll always be a planet to me.

  2. #77
    Senior Member Superdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    This thread is just getting wierder...the Greek Gods are jerks. This is as it should be, I think, because that's what they always were. Whether the Justice League declares war on them or not doesn't make any other story better or worse. I mean, what is your claim? The Greek gods should be sanitized or the Jutsice League should attack them? That's a bizarre dichotomy.
    Army of Crime

    Image: Fatale, Saga
    Dark Horse: Mind Mgmt
    Marvel: Daredevil, Hawkeye, Thor: God of Thunder

  3. #78
    Junior Member Alatheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    168

    Default

    The thread is this: HIPPOLYTA AND ZEUS: WHAT IF THEY WERE LOVERS, WHILE ZEUS AND HERA WERE SEPARATED?

    My original point is, it's ridiculous to be concerned about Zeus's morality. In other words, human morality is meaningless to a god. That was turned, bizarrely into, the gods are just basically supervillains and since they're supervillains they should be accountable for their actions. I'm not arguing that. I'm not even sure how that came to be the argument.
    Pluto, you'll always be a planet to me.

  4. #79
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,145

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDracul View Post
    It's to the point that from a human perspective most of the Greek gods are about on par with super villains. It really doesn't make much sense why a group like the Justice League wouldn't treat them as such. The fact that they don't see themselves as evil is irrelevant as virtually no one sees themselves as evil (even if the recognize their own actions as evil they will come up with justifications or excuses). To say the Greek gods should be excused for their actions is to say the Justice League is wrong to oppose Darksied as he too is a god.
    Is the Justice League in any way concerned by all the atrocities Darkseid commits on a regular basis in his home planet? No. Or at least, I've never seen them invading Apokolips to destitute him. They fight him when he tries to take over the world and that's the end of it.
    The Greek Gods have no interest in taking over the world (well, most of them), therefore they have no reason to fight them until they do.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  5. #80
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Beyond the Dune Sea.
    Posts
    11,600

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Is the Justice League in any way concerned by all the atrocities Darkseid commits on a regular basis in his home planet? No. Or at least, I've never seen them invading Apokolips to destitute him. They fight him when he tries to take over the world and that's the end of it.
    The Greek Gods have no interest in taking over the world (well, most of them), therefore they have no reason to fight them until they do.
    It seems like Darkseid they turn up on Earth and kill people. They are just sneaker about it. So the reason as stated exists. Plenty of supervillains are just greedy petulant children or murderous sociopaths.

    As to why to the original theme, as has been pointed out human morals are largely meaningless to this crew - they just do what they like. Which means regardless of Zeus marital status Diana's mother still has incredibly poor taste in men, tp put it mildly. Another blow for Amazon culture as a whole.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  6. #81
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,145

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    It seems like Darkseid they turn up on Earth and kill people. They are just sneaker about it. So the reason as stated exists. Plenty of supervillains are just greedy petulant children or murderous sociopaths.

    As to why to the original theme, as has been pointed out human morals are largely meaningless to this crew - they just do what they like. Which means regardless of Zeus marital status Diana's mother still has incredibly poor taste in men, tp put it mildly. Another blow for Amazon culture as a whole.
    Yeah, because it never happens to be attracted to the wrong kind of people.
    And the only God I have seen murdering people on this run are Appolo and Hera, both of which are fought by Wonder Woman.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  7. #82
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    6,572

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    As to why to the original theme, as has been pointed out human morals are largely meaningless to this crew - they just do what they like. Which means regardless of Zeus marital status Diana's mother still has incredibly poor taste in men, tp put it mildly. Another blow for Amazon culture as a whole.
    A) That's assuming she willing drew Zeus to her.
    B) It still comes down to if Hippolyta had any choice in the matter. (Unless you believe she has beyond Green Lantern levels of willpower to resist the irresistible)

  8. #83
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,324

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    A) That's assuming she willing drew Zeus to her.
    B) It still comes down to if Hippolyta had any choice in the matter. (Unless you believe she has beyond Green Lantern levels of willpower to resist the irresistible)
    Azzarello already confirmed in an interview that Hippolyta loved Zeus, and iirc that Zeus loved her (though in his own way, which is to say for roughly the time he had her and that's about all) and there was no rape involved, so Hippolyta absolutely had a choice in the matter. If Zeus made himself irrestible then it would be rape. She knowingly had an affair with a married man and is very much in the wrong here. I'm looking forward to finding out exactly how Zeus and Hippolyta first hooked up, since Hippolyta left that part out of her story, and also because in an interview Azz said that Hippolyta's stry was the lynchpin for the whole story.

    Gotta add that this dosn't bother me, people fall for the wrong folk all the time and I am fine with Hippolyta making a shitty decision. Though I doubt you'd ever hear her saying it was a shitty decision since she got Diana out of it. I actually sympathised with her, and with her being a horribly flawed human being. And then it turned out she was queen of the sex pirates and my sympathy and care went right out the window.

  9. #84
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    6,572

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFalls View Post
    Azzarello already confirmed in an interview that Hippolyta loved Zeus, and iirc that Zeus loved her (though in his own way, which is to say for roughly the time he had her and that's about all) and there was no rape involved, so Hippolyta absolutely had a choice in the matter. If Zeus made himself irrestible then it would be rape. She knowingly had an affair with a married man and is very much in the wrong here. I'm looking forward to finding out exactly how Zeus and Hippolyta first hooked up, since Hippolyta left that part out of her story, and also because in an interview Azz said that Hippolyta's stry was the lynchpin for the whole story.
    I am not sure you understand what Hermes means by irresistible.

  10. #85
    Senior Member Superdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    It seems like Darkseid they turn up on Earth and kill people. They are just sneaker about it. So the reason as stated exists. Plenty of supervillains are just greedy petulant children or murderous sociopaths.

    As to why to the original theme, as has been pointed out human morals are largely meaningless to this crew - they just do what they like. Which means regardless of Zeus marital status Diana's mother still has incredibly poor taste in men, tp put it mildly. Another blow for Amazon culture as a whole.
    That says nothing bad about "Amazon culture".
    Army of Crime

    Image: Fatale, Saga
    Dark Horse: Mind Mgmt
    Marvel: Daredevil, Hawkeye, Thor: God of Thunder

  11. #86
    Whiz Kids Vs. Witchcraft! tangentman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Savannah, GA
    Posts
    10,273

    Default

    The story explicitly described Zeus making himself "irresistible" to his lovers. I'm certain that even Nu-Hippolyta has formidable willpower, but so does Carol Danvers. Personally, the entire Zeus/Hippolyta fling reminds me of the infamous Avengers #200 and Marcus' subtle confession of rape. I wonder if the next Wonder Woman writer will likewise give us a moment comparable with Carol's follow-up confrontation of her team in Avengers Annual #10? Where is the Carol Strickland essay for this particular touchy point?

    Personally, I've long had a bad taste in my mouth about this Azzarello decision. I hated seeing the feminist piece of Wonder Woman's origin discarded, especially since Azz defaulted to replacing the classic Amazons with marauding, misandrist sex pirates. Diana was unique in coming from a fatherless family, raised by a loving matriarchy. I know that didn't go over well with the "Nu Fans" and the people who'd long avoided this title.

    Fine. I could have lived with Hippolyta conceiving Diana with a man, but Zeus? Why NOT just go with Heracles? Hera hates him, so it's not as though you'd lose the revenge angle altogether. Going with Zeus just seems cliche and predictable. Many fans expressed hopes that Zeus WOULDN'T be the father, but Azz seems hellbent on alienating the longtime fans so he can bring over his 100 Bullets followers...moving along...

    What seems ultimately shameful about this choice is the way it plays into the sexist notion of "female rivalry". Wonder Woman has long promoted the principles of feminism and sisterhood. Diana and the Amazons believed in strong accord with other women. Setting up Hippolyta as the "other woman" and pitting her against Hera sabotages a long-standing bright point of Wonder Woman lore. It also convinces me that, although Azzarello artfully tells his story at many turns, he just doesn't GET Wonder Woman when all is said and done.
    Who needs CoTM when you can have a Skullie?

    I am Tangent Man! I do not care!

  12. #87
    Senior Member UsagiTsukino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    2,140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    The story explicitly described Zeus making himself "irresistible" to his lovers. I'm certain that even Nu-Hippolyta has formidable willpower, but so does Carol Danvers. Personally, the entire Zeus/Hippolyta fling reminds me of the infamous Avengers #200 and Marcus' subtle confession of rape. I wonder if the next Wonder Woman writer will likewise give us a moment comparable with Carol's follow-up confrontation of her team in Avengers Annual #10? Where is the Carol Strickland essay for this particular touchy point?

    Personally, I've long had a bad taste in my mouth about this Azzarello decision. I hated seeing the feminist piece of Wonder Woman's origin discarded, especially since Azz defaulted to replacing the classic Amazons with marauding, misandrist sex pirates. Diana was unique in coming from a fatherless family, raised by a loving matriarchy. I know that didn't go over well with the "Nu Fans" and the people who'd long avoided this title.

    Fine. I could have lived with Hippolyta conceiving Diana with a man, but Zeus? Why NOT just go with Heracles? Hera hates him, so it's not as though you'd lose the revenge angle altogether. Going with Zeus just seems cliche and predictable. Many fans expressed hopes that Zeus WOULDN'T be the father, but Azz seems hellbent on alienating the longtime fans so he can bring over his 100 Bullets followers...moving along...

    What seems ultimately shameful about this choice is the way it plays into the sexist notion of "female rivalry". Wonder Woman has long promoted the principles of feminism and sisterhood. Diana and the Amazons believed in strong accord with other women. Setting up Hippolyta as the "other woman" and pitting her against Hera sabotages a long-standing bright point of Wonder Woman lore. It also convinces me that, although Azzarello artfully tells his story at many turns, he just doesn't GET Wonder Woman when all is said and done.
    I agree. Would it have been strange if Hippolyta was pregnant because of one of the goddess give back her child that she lost long ago.

  13. #88
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Beyond the Dune Sea.
    Posts
    11,600

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdog View Post
    That says nothing bad about "Amazon culture".
    In stories past, the Amazons were stand up women who learned from their mistakes and were became examples of how women can forge their own identities and dont have to just swoon into the arms of every good looking hero type who turns up naked with a spear in his hands [no pun intended].

    With this development of the story, I see the Amazons mythos taking three hits in the last 15 months. First, they hate men - they dont just mistrust them, they hate them to the point that that the see the perfect Amazons as someone who has nothing to do with them. They kill me in their sex raids to procreate, but also with Hippolyta [their queen] they succumb to desire for men even when everything about their beliefs.

    Now Azzarello can say that this is a romance between equals, but ultimately its hard for me to see how. Zeus boinked Hippolyta last on the list of a line of six other such interludes, and that was just in the last century and assuming there were not others that didnt begat children. I supposed the idea is that their love was supposed to be special, but it seems to be only as special as all the other affairs he had.

    So in the end, to my thinking, the Queen of the Amazons has just become another notch in the old thunder-Bolts bedpost while describes him as if he were the love of her life. It hardly seems an equal relationship to me, and reduces Hippolyta, for all her warrior prowess and Queenly pride, to the level of a love struck teenager unable to make an intelligent decision because of the hormones rampaging around inside her.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  14. #89
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,145

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    They kill me in their sex raids to procreate, but also with Hippolyta [their queen] they succumb to desire for men even when everything about their beliefs.
    I always knew you were taking all this way too personally.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  15. #90
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    6,572

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    The story explicitly described Zeus making himself "irresistible" to his lovers. I'm certain that even Nu-Hippolyta has formidable willpower, but so does Carol Danvers. Personally, the entire Zeus/Hippolyta fling reminds me of the infamous Avengers #200 and Marcus' subtle confession of rape. I wonder if the next Wonder Woman writer will likewise give us a moment comparable with Carol's follow-up confrontation of her team in Avengers Annual #10? Where is the Carol Strickland essay for this particular touchy point?
    So far the WW story hasnt progressed to N'th level of bizarre that the Ms. Marvel story escalated into.
    We are after all still waiting for Hippolyta to give birth to Zeus, find out she was actually raped by him before falling in love with him once more and going with him once again...

    Fine. I could have lived with Hippolyta conceiving Diana with a man, but Zeus? Why NOT just go with Heracles? Hera hates him, so it's not as though you'd lose the revenge angle altogether. Going with Zeus just seems cliche and predictable. Many fans expressed hopes that Zeus WOULDN'T be the father, but Azz seems hellbent on alienating the longtime fans so he can bring over his 100 Bullets followers...moving along...
    If you think Hippolyta making Diana with the help of Zeus is bad. Imagine the explosion of screaming and wailing from the Internet if it had been Heracles, the only person that could have been a worse choice of father from WW lore would be Ares.

    What seems ultimately shameful about this choice is the way it plays into the sexist notion of "female rivalry". Wonder Woman has long promoted the principles of feminism and sisterhood. Diana and the Amazons believed in strong accord with other women. Setting up Hippolyta as the "other woman" and pitting her against Hera sabotages a long-standing bright point of Wonder Woman lore. It also convinces me that, although Azzarello artfully tells his story at many turns, he just doesn't GET Wonder Woman when all is said and done.
    It appears it's more likely you who don't get what the Olympians are about. All the notions of Sisterhood and all that doesn't mean anything when something like Zeus appears on their doorstep with his irresistible charm.


    I am sorry to point this out, but I think a fair number of people here forget that irresistible in this context means that the women don't have choice in the matter, the same way the Juggernaut is unstoppable.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •