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  1. #46
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    The question is if she didn't.
    I mean, for one thing Hippolyta did attract the god of man with all the ill's and boons that implies. So if she had said no, I figure Zeus would just do it anyways because he is unlikely to take no for an answer. Result wouldn't be different when regarding Hera, she'd come after Hippolyta and Diana anyways.
    The other thing, as Hermes told Zola, when Zeus is in the mood, he will appear as irresistible to his choice, meaning Hippolyta's mind and judgment might be clouded just by looking at him.
    Finally, there is the question if Hippolyta went along with it just to stick it to Hera or not, which I doubt. I know that some infidelities are conducted with something like that in mind, by judging by Hippolyta's tale, this doesn't appear to be one of them.

    But yes, Hippolyta and Zeus are jerks towards Hera for doing this. But I honestly would like to know why exactly Zeus does this (who knows, perhaps he does have a good reason?)
    And Hera is a bit of a fool herself, she knows Zeus does all of these things behind her back, but she still insists on remaining his wife...where I guess smarter people today would just admit defeat and just leave the bastard.
    Azzarello has taken pains to say directly that no coercion was involved as far as he is concerned. Of course he also calls it a soft reboot. But I think in this he is genuine. At least I hope he is, because the idea that the Queen of the Amazons would literally roll over for any man because they knew the consequences of saying no is just wrong. And horrifying in its implication since it is basically saying Hippolyta had no choice.

    As to Hera - look, this lady is six different flavors of bitch-crazy, but leaving Zeus seems problematic. He had her publicaly tortured for defying him on at least one occasions. Its the very fact that he does what he wants when he wants with whoever he wants that makes Hippolyta falling from him so unpalatable to many readers.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Azzarello has taken pains to say directly that no coercion was involved as far as he is concerned. Of course he also calls it a soft reboot. But I think in this he is genuine.
    Ah but we only have Hippolyta's word for it. If we take Hermes' words to their conclusion it would mean that Zeus indeed cheats his way into a womans loins, the women might feel it was all genuine, but the question is if Zeus remembers them the day after. Actually we have a bit of an example of this in Marvels Hercules who got kicked in the groin for forgetting his night with Psylocke (who did remember it...and that he said it was unforgettable).

    At least I hope he is, because the idea that the Queen of the Amazons would literally roll over for any man because they knew the consequences of saying no is just wrong. And horrifying in its implication since it is basically saying Hippolyta had no choice.
    It is wrong, but I don't think it's any man that could pull this off, only Zeus. Come to think of it, didn't Hyperion pull a similar stunt on Donna Troy once?

    As to Hera - look, this lady is six different flavors of bitch-crazy, but leaving Zeus seems problematic. He had her publicaly tortured for defying him on at least one occasions. Its the very fact that he does what he wants when he wants with whoever he wants that makes Hippolyta falling from him so unpalatable to many readers.
    Well they can agree with Poseidon who thinks Zeus is a monster. But at the bottom of it, all of this could be down to Zeus being as good as Harry Tanner at the game of deception.

  3. #48
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    ...perhaps PI is still a really nice place to be if you are one of it's normal inhabitants...But I also understand the reason behind changing it...Problem is that Hera isn't part of that Sisterhood and...(for me atleast) the Amazons exemplify that a society of women alone can function just as well as a normal one, that women can do all the things usually thought of as a man's job...
    I would go further to say that the entire point of the Amazons creating their own utopian society is because they are the idealists Marston gave us. Having survived the greed and brutality of Man's World, the idea of willfully stealing from or hurting one of their own or any other women would be painfully wrong to them. Dare I say, even unthinkable.

    That, for my money, is why it is so difficult for me to accept that Queen Hippolyta, in any incarnation, would knowingly use another woman's husband for her own sexual gratification, ..no matter how hot and sweaty the battle between them got. The idea that she would dare bed down the husband of Hera, the mythical Queen of Heaven, is so absolutely absurd that it just doesn't fit into the cultural brain or historical bloodstream of the Wonder Woman comic.

    Hippolyta's dalliance with a married King of the Gods, however fleeting or hot or scandalous, just doesn't belong in this comic.

    Thank you for articulating for all of us that Paradise Island is a special place, Outside. That, in a nutshell, is why I just can't accept the story of how Azzarello's Hippolyta and Zeus first became lovers.
    Last edited by MelDyer; 12-10-2012 at 12:50 AM. Reason: more text, clarity
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  4. #49
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    I would go further to say that the entire point of the Amazons creating their own utopian society is because they are the idealists Marston gave us. Having survived the greed and brutality of Man's World, the idea of willfully stealing from or hurting one of their own or any other women would be painfully wrong to them. Dare I say, even unthinkable.

    That, for my money, is why it is so difficult for me to accept that Queen Hippolyta, in any incarnation, would knowingly use another woman's husband for her own sexual gratification, ..no matter how hot and sweaty the battle between them got. The idea that she would dare bed down the husband of Hera, the mythical Queen of Heaven, is so absolutely absurd that it just doesn't fit into the cultural brain or historical bloodstream of the Wonder Woman comic.

    Hippolyta's dalliance with a married King of the Gods, however fleeting or hot or scandalous, just doesn't belong in this comic.

    Thank you for articulating for all of us that Paradise Island is a special place, Outside. That, in a nutshell, is why I just can't accept the story of how Azzarello's Hippolyta and Zeus first became lovers.
    That is assuming Azzarello has any interest in showing enlightened Utopian Amazons. So far they seem to be violent warrior xenophobes.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    I would go further to say that the entire point of the Amazons creating their own utopian society is because they are the idealists Marston gave us. Having survived the greed and brutality of Man's World, the idea of willfully stealing from or hurting one of their own or any other women would be painfully wrong to them. Dare I say, even unthinkable.
    Considering Marston lived in a pseudo-open relationship himself, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his amazons swapped partners once in a while, perhaps as a sign of how deep the trusts was between partners? So, perhaps to the Amazons, having a one-night stand with someone else is perfectly ok. (obviously it's not ever going to be ok for Hera as she is the goddess of the rigid structure of marriage).

    That, for my money, is why it is so difficult for me to accept that Queen Hippolyta, in any incarnation, would knowingly use another woman's husband for her own sexual gratification, ..no matter how hot and sweaty the battle between them got. The idea that she would dare bed down the husband of Hera, the mythical Queen of Heaven, is so absolutely absurd that it just doesn't fit into the cultural brain or historical bloodstream of the Wonder Woman comic.
    But what I have been getting at in the last 2 posts is that Hippolyta was perhaps under the mental/divine influence of Zeus (by this I mean that when Hermes says he appears irresistible, it really means no woman would be able to not fall for him), so technically Hippolyta was raped by him but left with this rose-tinted vision of what happened, perhaps the same happened to Hera?

    Hippolyta's dalliance with a married King of the Gods, however fleeting or hot or scandalous, just doesn't belong in this comic.
    Only if you throw out the old non-ideal vision of what the Olympian Gods were and embrace that very polished and mostly friendly version we've been having for ages.
    Last edited by Outside_85; 12-10-2012 at 02:39 AM.

  6. #51
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Hippolyta and ZEUS: What if they were lovers, while Zeus and Hera were separated?

  7. #52
    Senior Member Superdog's Avatar
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    I feel like I don't even understand what the complaint is... Zeus is a terrible person who wants to sleep with pretty much everyone. Even if she was his grand-daughter I really don't think he would care. If Hyppolyta succumbs to his masculine wiles that doesn't reflect badly on anyone other than her, and even then it was like 20 years ago.

    It doesn't say anything bad about Diana or the Amazons as a whole. Adultery is sort of part and parcel of Greek myth, Ares sleeps with Aphrodite all the time, even though she's married to Hephasteus.
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  8. #53
    Junior Member Alatheus's Avatar
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    I think it is funny to try and apply human morality to the Greek gods.
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  9. #54
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    Not really as for the most part what separates the Greek gods from mortals is power. Unless your saying that might makes right.

  10. #55
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDracul View Post
    Not really as for the most part what separates the Greek gods from mortals is power. Unless your saying that might makes right.
    Well, it kind of does as far as the Greek Gods are concerned.
    They are very human, but not in a positive way: they are petty, jealous, overcomed by their passion, and are basicaly the good guys because they say so.
    The one lesson Greek mythology gives about them is "never, ever do something that will upset a God".
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  11. #56
    Junior Member Alatheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDracul View Post
    Not really as for the most part what separates the Greek gods from mortals is power. Unless your saying that might makes right.
    Well, I think it's pretty self-centered. No human knows what it is to be a god. Their constitution is based on eons of existence and immense power. For someone to expect a god to follow codes of human ethics and morality is pretty amusing. And to what morality should they be held to? To the morality of present day western society? To the morality of ancient Greece? To the morality of humans 1,000 years from now?

    So I stand by my original statement. It's silly.
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  12. #57
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatheus View Post
    Well, I think it's pretty self-centered. No human knows what it is to be a god. Their constitution is based on eons of existence and immense power. For someone to expect a god to follow codes of human ethics and morality is pretty amusing.
    Superman seems to manage. Diana too, for that matter.

    They are just borderline supervillains. Just because they think Thea can do what they want doesn't mean they should get away with it.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Superman seems to manage. Diana too, for that matter.
    Neither of them were brought up with the notion that they were gods and that humans were just insects that better worship them and provide amusement.

  14. #59
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Superman seems to manage. Diana too, for that matter.

    They are just borderline supervillains. Just because they think Thea can do what they want doesn't mean they should get away with it.
    Nobody ever said they are good persons. They have never been good persons.
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  15. #60
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Neither of them were brought up with the notion that they were gods and that humans were just insects that better worship them and provide amusement.
    Neither has Darksied, or any number of other villains. And yet the Justice League reguarly kick their arses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Nobody ever said they are good persons. They have never been good persons.
    Exactly. Lex is not a good person either. Or the Penguin, or Vandal Savage or Black Adam. You can say that the gods were raised to be as they are, but if we applied that logic to the other beings with their level of power you might as well release all the Supervillains and sign the deed for Earth over to Apokalips.
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