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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    I found a way to forgive the junking of Wonder Woman's fairytale 'clay doll' origin and accept that, like Barry Allen as Flash, this is a new Wondy we're reading. The new Wonder Woman has two amazing and legendary parents, and I'm fully on-board with that.

    It depresses me, however, that we, now, have to explain to younger first-time fans why Wonder Woman's mommy wasn't Wonder Woman's daddy's wife ..and why Wonder Woman's daddy's wife wants to kill her. I don't see how this is helping make the story better, when all it brings the world is more pessimism. All it indulges is the idea that nothing is sacred and that there's nothing to aspire to - that we're fools to believe in anything. Wonder Woman is the Rolls Royce of superheroines, and what Mr. Azzarello has given us isn't a 'Rolls Royce' story

    Depressing.

    I will gladly see some revisions made to this coarsening of an American literary icon.
    Theres absolutely something to aspire to. No matter how imperfect her origin Wonder Woman is still a champion of love, loyalty and ferocity to protect others. She was born form an incident and has done great things in her lifetime. Circumstances don't have to be pure to be positive.

    This kind of reminds me of Linkara's response to issue 3,(if you don't know who linkara is, look him up its worth the time) that he was disappointed because amazon wasn't unanimously supportive and Wonder Woman was born from an act of betrayal and grew up with a lie. Theres a feeling that it taints her character somehow because the circumstances to her being are not pure like it was before, that all that she had going for her is now gone, that all of this is just another darkening of comics in general. he often says that The book has "ruined" her Character.

    However I think a new view of things is needed in this regard. When the world isn't as bright as some might like the light that remains tends to be more valued and worth hailing. Thats how I view Wonder Woman in the new 52. No matter how the lore of Amazon and her origin may change she never does. She's the same character we've al come to know and love, the settings just changed a bit.

    Just because the world isn't as perfect as some might like it to be, doesn't mean there isn't something positive that can be gained from it. In fact it really highlights the best of whats really still good.

    The only way she is coursed or ruined is if she succumbs to the darkness of her situation, which she steadfastly refuses to do at every turn. Explain that to younger fans, how despite the darker world around her, Diana is still true to form and is a beacon of making positives where there only appears to be negatives.

    I wish I could put it more eloquently, but hows that help you quell your depression over her status quo?
    Steve Rogers: You ready to follow Captain America into the jaws of death?
    James Barnes: Hell, no! The little guy from Brooklyn who was too dumb not to run away from a fight. I'm following him."

  2. #32
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.M. Anthony View Post
    Theres absolutely something to aspire to. No matter how imperfect her origin Wonder Woman is still a champion of love, loyalty and ferocity to protect others. She was born form an incident and has done great things in her lifetime. Circumstances don't have to be pure to be positive.

    This kind of reminds me of Linkara's response to issue 3,(if you don't know who linkara is, look him up its worth the time) that he was disappointed because amazon wasn't unanimously supportive and Wonder Woman was born from an act of betrayal and grew up with a lie. Theres a feeling that it taints her character somehow because the circumstances to her being are not pure like it was before, that all that she had going for her is now gone, that all of this is just another darkening of comics in general. he often says that The book has "ruined" her Character.

    However I think a new view of things is needed in this regard. When the world isn't as bright as some might like the light that remains tends to be more valued and worth hailing. Thats how I view Wonder Woman in the new 52. No matter how the lore of Amazon and her origin may change she never does. She's the same character we've al come to know and love, the settings just changed a bit.

    Just because the world isn't as perfect as some might like it to be, doesn't mean there isn't something positive that can be gained from it. In fact it really highlights the best of whats really still good.

    The only way she is coursed or ruined is if she succumbs to the darkness of her situation, which she steadfastly refuses to do at every turn. Explain that to younger fans, how despite the darker world around her, Diana is still true to form and is a beacon of making positives where there only appears to be negatives.

    I wish I could put it more eloquently, but hows that help you quell your depression over her status quo?
    Again, its got nothing to do with Diana. I just hate that her mother, an Amazon, would crap all over another woman's marriage.
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  3. #33
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    It only changes your perception of it, Hera will probably be as vindictive as ever when she finds out.
    Btw, Metis didnt exactly leave, Zeus ate her and Athena was too powerful from the get go for Hera to easily make an attempt on her.

  4. #34
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    It only changes your perception of it, Hera will probably be as vindictive as ever when she finds out.
    Btw, Metis didnt exactly leave, Zeus ate her and Athena was too powerful from the get go for Hera to easily make an attempt on her.
    Honestly, Outside, I was just too lazy to get into the details of the 'why-Zeus-ate-Metis' thing. I was trying to recall a time, when Zeus and Hera were separated, and that's what came up. I also recall a time, when all of the gods left Greece and disguised themselves as Egyptian gods, but, I think both of these events were too early in human history to tie-in with Wonder Woman's birth or conception.

    Hera's perception of what happened between Zeus and Hippolyta is less important to me than Zeus's and Hippolyta's perception of it, because Zeus and Hippolyta are the offending parties. Hippolyta, an Amazon, should have known better.

    For my money, I don't want Wonder Woman's parents to be just as messed up as yours and my parents could be. Queen Hippolyta is a mythical queen from a mythical place that is inherently better than where we're from.

    I can just assume or pretend that Zeus hooked up with Hippolyta at a time, when Hippolyta did not see Zeus as married to Hera. I don't think the Amazons of the Wonderverse, as I have known them, would steal another woman's husband or anything else, as doing so would be against their philosophy.

    Sisterhood is stronger than anything. Remember?
    Last edited by MelDyer; 12-08-2012 at 08:35 AM. Reason: clarity
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
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  5. #35
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    Honestly, Outside, I was just too lazy to get into the details of the 'why-Zeus-ate-Metis' thing. I was trying to recall a time, when Zeus and Hera were separated, and that's what came up. I also recall a time, when all of the gods left Greece and disguised themselves as Egyptian gods, but, I think both of these events were too early in human history to tie-in with Wonder Woman's birth or conception.

    Hera's perception of what happened between Zeus and Hippolyta is less important to me than Zeus's and Hippolyta's perception of it, because Zeus and Hippolyta are the offending parties. Hippolyta, an Amazon, should have known better.

    For my money, I don't want Wonder Woman's parents to be just as messed up as yours and my parents could be. Queen Hippolyta is a mythical queen from a mythical place that is inherently better than where we're from.

    I can just assume or pretend that Zeus hooked up with Hippolyta at a time, when Hippolyta did not see Zeus as married to Hera. I don't think the Amazons of the Wonderverse, as I have known them, would steal another woman's husband or anything else, as doing so would be against their philosophy.

    Sisterhood is stronger than anything. Remember?
    Yeah, I don't think we can really say it's much better than where we're from anymore, to tell you the truth. I mean, come on, they have to fight harpies.
    As for the whole thread, well:
    1) I don't think Gods can divorce.
    2) Zeus is a well-known adulterer who obviously doesn't love Hera, and has cheated on her for millenias, so the mariage is already pretty crappy by the time Hypolita enters the picture (it's not like the fact Zeus cheated on her with Hypolita is exactly a complete surprise to her, considering her relative lack of immediate reaction)
    3) About the "what about the new kids fans of WW", I don't think I would give this run to a 5 year old kid, but for lots of other reasons (it's quite bloody, he should love it by the time he's 12). Plus.....When you read Snow White to your kids, do you feel depressed that you have to explain why Snow-White's stepmother wants to murder her, or why the spemother is not her real mother? Kids know about adultery, divorces, and remariages, they are not stupid.
    4) It would kind of dumb narratively speaking to have Zeus separated from his wife just long enough to put another pregnant, only for him to be back with his wife by the time the story starts.
    5) I find the idea that somehow, Wonder Woman is "soiled" by the fact she is born from an adventure her mother had to be quite insulting, actually. Just like I found the idea of Hyppolita being somewhat diminued as a woman by what is, for all intent and purposes , a mistake to be quite horrible.
    6) Overall, it just fells like a complete waste of time with no advantage, and a subtext of PC crazyness that I think is best to get away from reaaal fast.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  6. #36
    Senior Member Seant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Say WHAT now?!

    I can tell you for an absolute fact that I know a lit of women who have NO sense of humour about adulterous husbands and a fairly scathing opinions of women who have sex witb other womens partners. I know I wouldnt tezt the EverQueen on that one.

    No offence to any of the females reading,but you so much as touch my arm you better be prepared to do mortal combat.
    Do we live in a matriarchal society?

  7. #37
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seant View Post
    Do we live in a matriarchal society?
    If your position is that if we did women would be okay with men sleeping around, I would like evidence to support that. Because I have not seen any.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member dreyga2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    That makes no difference for me.

    Being in love is not an excuse for doing the wrong thing and hurting another person. Human beings dont have to act on every random impulse that flits through their head... or other organs further south.
    I'm not saying its an excuse or a justification....

    I like because it's gray, and imperfect and bad...
    All stories are imaginary, so you get to decide what's important and what isn't. Continuity is fluid.

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    Quoted for truth....

  9. #39
    Gratin dauphinois psyshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    If your position is that if we did women would be okay with men sleeping around, I would like evidence to support that. Because I have not seen any.
    Brett, i need to find the link but I have read online that matriarchal tribes are more open to open relationships and alternate family models. To be confirmed once i find the pages where I read it, of course...

  10. #40
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyshot View Post
    Brett, i need to find the link but I have read online that matriarchal tribes are more open to open relationships and alternate family models. To be confirmed once i find the pages where I read it, of course...
    Thanks Psy. Though I am not sure I am looking forward to a debate about how "male values" have polluted the minds of the women of our culture
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    Hera's perception of what happened between Zeus and Hippolyta is less important to me than Zeus's and Hippolyta's perception of it, because Zeus and Hippolyta are the offending parties. Hippolyta, an Amazon, should have known better.
    The question is if she didn't.
    I mean, for one thing Hippolyta did attract the god of man with all the ill's and boons that implies. So if she had said no, I figure Zeus would just do it anyways because he is unlikely to take no for an answer. Result wouldn't be different when regarding Hera, she'd come after Hippolyta and Diana anyways.
    The other thing, as Hermes told Zola, when Zeus is in the mood, he will appear as irresistible to his choice, meaning Hippolyta's mind and judgment might be clouded just by looking at him.
    Finally, there is the question if Hippolyta went along with it just to stick it to Hera or not, which I doubt. I know that some infidelities are conducted with something like that in mind, by judging by Hippolyta's tale, this doesn't appear to be one of them.

    But yes, Hippolyta and Zeus are jerks towards Hera for doing this. But I honestly would like to know why exactly Zeus does this (who knows, perhaps he does have a good reason?)
    And Hera is a bit of a fool herself, she knows Zeus does all of these things behind her back, but she still insists on remaining his wife...where I guess smarter people today would just admit defeat and just leave the bastard.

    For my money, I don't want Wonder Woman's parents to be just as messed up as yours and my parents could be. Queen Hippolyta is a mythical queen from a mythical place that is inherently better than where we're from.
    I understand that and perhaps PI is still a really nice place to be if you are one of it's normal inhabitants.
    But I also understand the reason behind changing it. Messy families provide truckloads of potential stories.

    I can just assume or pretend that Zeus hooked up with Hippolyta at a time, when Hippolyta did not see Zeus as married to Hera. I don't think the Amazons of the Wonderverse, as I have known them, would steal another woman's husband or anything else, as doing so would be against their philosophy.

    Sisterhood is stronger than anything. Remember?
    Problem is that Hera isn't part of that Sisterhood and even worse, she is the embodiment of all the things that we believe the Amazons embody.
    See (for me atleast) the Amazons exemplify that a society of women alone can function just as well as a normal one, that women can do all the things usually thought of as a man's job.
    Hera on the other hand is an embodiment of the idea that women can barely stand on their own two feet without a man nearby to help them.

  12. #42
    Junior Member jestersjoker's Avatar
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    I do not think it would have mattered if Zeus & Hera were separated. I do not think they could ever get separated since Zeus is a confirmed rapist, philanderer and Hera is the goddess of marriage and childbearing. To me they are joined at the hip together eternally.
    Besides whom does Zeus really love? Hera, Zola, Cassie's mom, Hippoloyta or whomever.

    The problem “I” have with this Hippolyta & Zeus romance for one thing it was not a romance, they just fought with each other until they got tired and eventually thru exhaustion I guess decided it was better to just have sex than to keep fighting.
    For one thing Hippolyta and to a great extent the Amazons have been reduced to Historical back ground characters.
    I mean in comics you have basically three types of characters.

    1. Main characters
    2. Supporting characters.
    3. Background characters or historical characters ( who are often used as cannon fodder)

    Hippolyta for the most part was a supporting character and often portrayed as a main character, she even had her own title as a main character.
    For Azz to use Hippolyta and the Amazons as cannon fodder is disturbing to me. To me it destroys the image I have carried of the Amazons of Paradise Island in the DC universe.

    I have for many years viewed the Amazons of Paradise Island sort of like fighting Catholic nuns who chose or vowed for the most part to live celibate lives for spiritual reasons. (My own personal view)
    And Diana leaving the convent or should I say the temple of Airtimes whose worshipers are warrior virgin priestess of the virgin goddess Artemis so to speak who were given eternal life to guard Doom’s door way to the underworld.

    I am not saying in anyway Diana or any Amazon should not have a love life. I am just saying that is the culture or the Amazon DC universe life style if you will Diana came from or at least did come from for some 70 years. Ya, I know Perez decided to turn the Amazons into resurrected females who were murdered and abused by their mates. Not to mention created from clay from a Greek lake.

    Back to Azz’s run, Since Azz. Has decided to kill off Hippolyta and turn the Amazons into snakes. I do not think that Hippolyta or the Amazons will be restored to their former glory or to supporting character roles until the next writer takes over and that is provided if this new writer wants to or not.

    And that also goes with Zeus being Diana’s father. If this Diana daughter of Zeus sticks I do not think that Hippolyta or the Amazons will ever be returned to supporting characters but that’s just my opinion.

    I am personally hoping this Wonder Woman daughter of Zeus will go away and that we find out that Hercules is Diana’s father.
    Last edited by jestersjoker; 12-09-2012 at 03:56 PM.

  13. #43
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    It would be sick if Hippolyta and Zeus were lovers. WHY? Zeus is the grandfather of Queen Hippolyta. Unless DC comics has changed this I was unaware, Ares the god of War is Queen Hippolyta's father. Ares is the son of Hera and Zeus in real greek Mythology.

    In Real Greek Mythology Ares and Othera is the parents of Queen Hippolyta. Othera is the founder of the Temple of Artemis the 7th Wonder of the World.

    I feel sorry for Wonder Woman, Zeus is great grandfather and father. Medically, she would be abnormal,unwell, unfit and very much insane.

    This is INCEST and RAPE not a loving affair. I want DC comics to stop the incest rape. Incest is a crime all over the world.


    In ancient Greece and ancient Rome only allowed half brother, half sister, cousins to marry, they were unaware of the medical harm to would cause unborn baby. They did not have the medical knowledge today. Father, daughter, grandfather, granddaughter marriage was a crime to the death, they were buried alive to Hades and Pluto. The victim were place in goddess Diana Temple in Rome to be raised.
    Last edited by caprice10; 12-09-2012 at 02:37 PM.

  14. #44
    Yoda's true Master. Darth Twiggy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=caprice10;16280311]It would be sick if Hippolyta and Zeus were lovers. WHY? Zeus is the grandfather of Queen Hippolyta. Unless DC comics has changed this I was unaware, Ares the god of War is Queen Hippolyta's father. Ares is the son of Hera and Zeus in real greek Mythology.

    In Real Greek Mythology Ares and Othera is the parents of Queen Hippolyta. Othera is the founder of the Temple of Artemis the 7th Wonder of the World.

    This is INCEST and RAPE not a loving affair. I want DC comics to stop the incest rape. Incest is a crime all over the world.

    This isnt "Real Greek Mythology" its just a comic book based on Greek Mythology.
    I know the Power of the Dark Side.

  15. #45
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    Never mind...

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