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  1. #16
    Yoda's true Master. Darth Twiggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post

    Honestly, it sticks in my craw that Wonder Woman, the feminine definition of superhero, was conceived in her mother's adulterous union with a married King of the Gods. I don't think we should take this so lightly, ..and I don't care if everyone's doing it or how gadblamed realistic or modern it is.
    [Wink]
    I agree with this 100%
    This should never have happened.
    DC was careless to let someone who doesnt know the character at all like Azarello, write her story.
    I know the Power of the Dark Side.

  2. #17
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    It matters to me simply for the reasons I've already stated, not to avoid your overly negative hypotheticals. I don't get the point of bringing all that up in the first place. I mean none of those things happened. So why would I take any of that into consideration? I consider what I've read, not what I didn't read but what would have made a situation worse.
    But if the person she is now is all that matters, why does the fact she was "conceived in love" make any difference? If that indeed is even what happened. But some people [not you, based on what you have said] would certainly rationalize that this is not as bad as it could have been. That's true, but not much comfort.

    And if the other scenarios are negative, it is simply because of what they are, not because they are overly anything.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-07-2012 at 08:33 PM.
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  3. #18
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    For all their carelessness though Wonder Woman is a hot title for the first time in decades. If what they did was wrong its a pretty good bet they don't want to be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    But if the person she is now is all that matters, why does the fact she was "conceived in love" make any difference? If that indeed is even what happened.
    I never said it made a difference in the person she grew to be, I said it pleases me. I like that she was conceived in love, from a symbolic point of view. In that same vein it probably would have bothered me, from a symbolic point of view, had she not been. It wouldn't damn the character, but it simply would have been a direction I wouldn't have cared for. I like that instead Azzarello went with the idea that Hippolyta and Zeus had real feelings for each other.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-07-2012 at 08:44 PM.

  4. #19
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Twiggy View Post
    I agree with this 100%
    This should never have happened.
    In this much at least, the Jedi and Sith find common ground
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  5. #20
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    For all their carelessness though Wonder Woman is a hot title for the first time in decades. If what they did was wrong its a pretty good bet they don't want to be right.
    Sadly true.

    I never said it made a difference, I said it pleases me. I like that she was conceived in love, from a symbolic point of view. Don't really get why you're so intent on going out your way to invalidate my thoughts.
    Because discussion is based on a level of disagreement. What you see as me trying to attack you is me applying the socratic method. I apologize if you thought I was trying to insult you. But this is a forum that involves a certain level of debate, after all.

    For example, symbolically we [as a society] seem to hold up that if you do something out of love, the act is more justified or excusable than otherwise. Which I think has the potential to be extremely harmful. Its not a new trend of course. Romeo and Juliet were both idiots, IMO.

    Edit - We also dont know if the concieved in love thing is true. Hippolyta may have felt that way. Zeus - who knows?
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-07-2012 at 08:43 PM.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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  6. #21
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    I would be more comfortable with Diana's new situation, if I found (later) that Queen Hippolyta and Zeus conceived her during a time, when Zeus and Hera were not together. That is as modern and realistic as it needs to get.

    It doesn't matter to me how modern it is that Wonder Woman was conceived in an adulterous union, because this character has always, even since marston, been steeped in idealism. I don't care that it makes some of us feel better about the circumstances of their real-life origins, because I'm not holding them or their parents to the same standard.

    If Zeus and Hippolyta had their affair, with the understanding that Hera was no longer in the picture, that would change everything. Would that editorial revision to Mr. Azzarello's story, if added in the future, hurt Diana's origin so much?
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  7. #22
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Hey I'm all for debate. I wholeheartedly accept that you disagree completely with my stance. I just felt that stance was being muddled and being over-analyzed when I had already explained how I felt and why. But no big, things get lost in the translation of plain text all the time, I don't believe there was any ill intent. I hope there wasn't any interpreted on my end either, from you or Mel. I don't want to come across as personal or anything, and again, and I know sometimes things can get heated to the point it does.

    If Zeus and Hippolyta had their affair, with the understanding that Hera was no longer in the picture, that would change everything. Would that editorial revision to Mr. Azzarello's story, if added in the future, hurt Diana's origin so much?
    In my opinion it wouldn't, no. The thing that gets lost though in such a revelation though is the knowledge that Hera now has no real place to be upset. I kinda liked that she actually had reason to be as mad as she was. She takes it to the extreme, but she's not totally without understanding in her feelings. I like that dimension to the tale.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-07-2012 at 08:48 PM.

  8. #23
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    I would be more comfortable with Diana's new situation, if I found (later) that Queen Hippolyta and Zeus conceived her during a time, when Zeus and Hera were not together. That is as modern and realistic as it needs to get.

    It doesn't matter to me how modern it is that Wonder Woman was conceived in an adulterous union, because this character has always, even since marston, been steeped in idealism. I don't care that it makes some of us feel better about the circumstances of their real-life origins, because I'm not holding them or their parents to the same standard.

    If Zeus and Hippolyta had their affair, with the understanding that Hera was no longer in the picture, that would change everything. Would that editorial revision to Mr. Azzarello's story, if added in the future, hurt Diana's origin so much?
    To me it would not make any difference, except to make Hippolyta seem extremely naive.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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  9. #24
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Hey I'm all for debate. I wholeheartedly accept that you disagree completely with my stance. I just felt that stance was being muddled and being over-analyzed when I had already explained how I felt and why. But no big, things get lost in the translation of plain text all the time, I don't believe there was any ill intent. I hope there wasn't any interpreted on my end either, from you or Mel. I don't want to come across as personal or anything, and again, and I know sometimes things can get heated to the point it does.
    I accept that I probably did not coach my words as politely as I could have. Apolgies.

    This is a subject that I have been thinking a good deal about lately. The cliff notes version of my thoughts are - "Love can be great. Do NOT trust it to make good decisons."
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  10. #25

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    I have no qualms with this change. Is it not ideal? well no. But sometimes things don't workout perfectly in life.

    I don't think this should dissuade anybody from liking WW. She seems to be the same person she was pre-launch. She's just not clay anymore. If anything the natural pregnancy and birth angle humanizes her (some of her best traits were stuff endowed into her DNA making her best personality traits artificial)

    It just shows great things can come from less than ideal circumstance. Frankly i'd be more angry if they madder her a pouty little princess or something.

    No matter how she came to be, through legendary means or lustful blundering, she is who she is now and base on whats seen thats a pretty amazing person. Only now she's got zeus powers and half a lineage in the greek pantheon; she's the shining beacon of truth among a family of deceivers and ulterior motives.
    Steve Rogers: You ready to follow Captain America into the jaws of death?
    James Barnes: Hell, no! The little guy from Brooklyn who was too dumb not to run away from a fight. I'm following him."

  11. #26
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Not sure if Hera and Zeus being separated would still stop it from being adultery. Regardless, while it would be nice for Hippolyta, really doesn't have an effect on Diana either way.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Seant's Avatar
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    If this were a matriarchal society, no one would give a crap about adultery. The Amazons are a matriarchal society. It's only men that want women to stay faithful (while they can go fool around all they want). It's only in a patriarchy that men need to know the child is theirs. Lineage and all. It's all about male control. No offense to you sensitive males out there.

  13. #28
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seant View Post
    If this were a matriarchal society, no one would give a crap about adultery. The Amazons are a matriarchal society. It's only men that want women to stay faithful (while they can go fool around all they want). It's only in a patriarchy that men need to know the child is theirs. Lineage and all. It's all about male control. No offense to you sensitive males out there.
    Say WHAT now?!

    I can tell you for an absolute fact that I know a lit of women who have NO sense of humour about adulterous husbands and a fairly scathing opinions of women who have sex witb other womens partners. I know I wouldnt tezt the EverQueen on that one.

    No offence to any of the females reading,but you so much as touch my arm you better be prepared to do mortal combat.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-07-2012 at 10:41 PM.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  14. #29
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebon Phantom View Post
    Not sure if Hera and Zeus being separated would still stop it from being adultery. Regardless, while it would be nice for Hippolyta, really doesn't have an effect on Diana either way.
    If Hera, for whatever reason, no longer existed or was exiled by her husband and king, Zeus, it would no longer be adultery. If she exiled herself from Olympus, it wouldn't be, and Zeus would be legitimately free to pursue anyone he wanted.

    I found a way to forgive the junking of Wonder Woman's fairytale 'clay doll' origin and accept that, like Barry Allen as Flash, this is a new Wondy we're reading. The new Wonder Woman has two amazing and legendary parents, and I'm fully on-board with that.

    It depresses me, however, that it must be explained to younger, more impressionable fans why Wonder Woman's Mommy wasn't Wonder Woman's Daddy's wife ..and why Wonder Woman's Daddy's wife wants to kill her. I don't see how this is helping make the story better, when all it brings Diana's world and ours is more pessimism. All it indulges is the idea that nothing is sacred and that there's nothing to aspire to - that we're fools to believe in anything. Wonder Woman is the Rolls Royce of superheroines, and what Mr. Azzarello has given us isn't a 'Rolls Royce' story.

    Depressing.

    The story, as it now stands, is not unsalvageable, and I will gladly see some revisions made to this coarsening of an American literary icon.
    Last edited by MelDyer; 12-07-2012 at 11:09 PM. Reason: clarity, reply
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  15. #30
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    So, you want them to have "been on a break"? *cue Friends theme*
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