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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Unless I am mistaken, she cut the arm off one, and later eviscerated the other witb her bare hands and left its entrails all over the street.
    Yep. The one whose arm she cut off survived (though she could easily have killed it had she so chosen)--so, as I said, she killed one, if you can say that a horse that was already slaughtered and reanimated by Hera could be "killed." And we don't actually see her slay it--we only see the results. True, the results are messy. Perhaps your point is that Perez's Wonder Woman is neater when she kills monsters. OK, points for neatness. But neatness does not necessarily amount to less violence. Does she kill less often? Does she fight less often? Otherwise, no, I don't think you can reasonably say that Diana has tended to be more violent in this run.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-15-2012 at 07:56 PM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Yep. The one whose arm she cut off survived (though she could easily have killed it had she so chosen)--so, as I said, she killed one, if you can say that a horse that was already slaughtered and reanimated by Hera could be "killed." And we don't actually see her slay it--we only see the results. True, the results are messy. Perhaps your point is that Perez's Wonder Woman is neater when she kills monsters. OK, points for neatness. But neatness does not necessarily amount to less violence. Does she kill less often? Does she fight less often? Otherwise, no, I don't think you can reasonably say that Diana has tended to be more violent in this run.
    I believe the movie rating system would describe it as 'graphic violence' or 'high level graphic violence'.

    The difference is easily identifiable in movies like The 300 Spartans and 300. The first, made in the 60's is rated PG or M. The second made recently is rated R. Both have Spartans and Persians killing each other, but the difference in the levels of violence is pronounced and easily identifable.

    Personally I think there is a difference between shooting a Hydra full or arrows, killing Cotus with a spear, or even decapitating Deimos with one clean stroke, and plunging one's arms up to the elbows into a Centaurs belly, ripping it open, and dumping its bloodied viscera all over ground.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Personally I think there is a difference between shooting a Hydra full or arrows, killing Cotus with a spear, or even decapitating Deimos with one clean stroke, and plunging one's arms up to the elbows into a Centaurs belly, ripping it open, and dumping its bloodied viscera all over ground.
    I don't think it matters as much when it was done off screen.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I believe the movie rating system would describe it as 'graphic violence' or 'high level graphic violence'.

    The difference is easily identifiable in movies like The 300 Spartans and 300. The first, made in the 60's is rated PG or M. The second made recently is rated R. Both have Spartans and Persians killing each other, but the difference in the levels of violence is pronounced and easily identifable.

    Personally I think there is a difference between shooting a Hydra full or arrows, killing Cotus with a spear, or even decapitating Deimos with one clean stroke, and plunging one's arms up to the elbows into a Centaurs belly, ripping it open, and dumping its bloodied viscera all over ground.
    Maybe Diana would have used a spear or a sword against the centaur in #6 if she had been carrying one. But even though she knew she might be meeting Poseidon, she didn't carry edged weapons around London. (In fact, in Azzarello's book, Diana rarely carries edged weapons, and on the three occasions in which she uses such a weapon, it is a found or borrowed weapon.)

    But in that #6, we get one panel where there's a splash of blood, followed by a panel in which a bloody hand begins to lift the vehicle Zola is hiding under, followed by a panel where Wonder Woman's arms are bloody, followed by a panel where there is an indistinct puddle of blood (and, I presume but cannot see, viscera) next to centaur's body in the background. That's all. How Wonder Woman drew that blood is left to the imagination. So do a puddle of blood and a pair of bloody arms constitute a more graphic representation of violence, by movie rating standards, than an onscreen decapitation? Or wouldn't it be considered less graphic (even when the copious amounts of blood that O presume would be produced by even a "clean" decapitation have been reduced)?

    Arguably, if you show a hero making a "clean" decapitation, you're cleaning up violence and perhaps unintentionally glorifying it. (After all, while I'm happy to say tht I've never seen a decapitation, I assume that the cleanest of them is still pretty bloody.) If you let the violence happen off-panel, but then show its gross results on panel, you're treating violence as obscene and disgusting, which seems about right.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce-wayne
    I don't think it matters as much when it was done off screen.
    Exactly.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-16-2012 at 03:37 AM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Maybe Diana would have used a spear or a sword against the centaur in #6 if she had been carrying one. But even though she knew she might be meeting Poseidon, she didn't carry edged weapons around London. (In fact, in Azzarello's book, Diana rarely carries edged weapons, and on the three occasions in which she uses such a weapon, it is a found or borrowed weapon.)

    But in that #6, we get one panel where there's a splash of blood, followed by a panel in which a bloody hand begins to lift the vehicle Zola is hiding under, followed by a panel where Wonder Woman's arms are bloody, followed by a panel where there is an indistinct puddle of blood (and, I presume but cannot see, viscera) next to centaur's body in the background. That's all. How Wonder Woman drew that blood is left to the imagination. So do a puddle of blood and a pair of bloody arms constitute a more graphic representation of violence, by movie rating standards, than an onscreen decapitation? Or wouldn't it be considered less graphic?
    Splash of blood? I think you mean torrent.

    Deimos' decapitation is done in silouette, so you dont actually see the blood. It's violent, but its M rated. If you think it should be higher, I guess we will have to rank the killing of the sailors and the skewering of the Amazons with arrows in #2 up there as well. Wearing the crimson gore of the creature you have just shredded is MA at least.

    And as for carrying around edged weapons - well, who needs them when you can tear your opponents limb from limb with your bare hands?
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Splash of blood? I think you mean torrent.
    Eh. As "torrents" go, it's not that impressive. Maybe if it were a larger panel.



    Deimos' decapitation is done in silouette, so you dont actually see the blood.
    So did doing her decapitating in silhouette make Diana a less violent character? "Your honor, I confess that I committed the murder, but there are extenuating circumstances. I did it in silhouette."

    Wearing the crimson gore of the creature you have just shredded is MA at least.
    Even when we didn't see the shredding? Maybe, but if so, it's because of gore, not violence. We didn't see the violence.

    (Besides, "wearing" makes it sound like Diana was intentionally displaying the blood. It gets (presumably) washed off within a couple of panels.)

    Your claim was that Diana, along with her world, is more violent in this run. I don't think showing us the blood that results from a bloody deed makes the character more violent. I'm not even sure it makes her world more violent; it just makes the horror of violence of her world more apparent, and, if you will, more viscerally felt. The results of violence can be gross; if artists clean them up too much all the time, there's a greater risk of glorifying violence.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-16-2012 at 04:33 AM.

  7. #97
    Senior Member Tiberious's Avatar
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    Trained by the God of War. Lied to her entire life by those she held dearest. Using an indistructable rope to intimidate answers out of her prey. Using a sword to hack, slash, and behead those in her path. Taking her shackles off to unleash a God force to strike down her opponent. Stabbing the eyes out of a God. Slashing the chest of a five year team mate for trying to go with her to save the man she threw away. Hacking Centaurs into bits.

    DC needs to fully embrace the berserker, uber warrior they have in their arsenal. Take her into full blown Wolverine mode and drop the "Oh I love everyone" crap. She works better as the loose cannon on the JL that they have to keep in check. Wolverine has no problem shoving six knives in the chest of his attacker and neither should Wonder Woman. There is far much more story potential for her to be always on the verge of losing it. It makes all of the stuff I typed above make sense. Even going as far back as Maxwell Lord. She should be the God of War that's trying to occasionally do good as opposed to the muddy hero.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Tiberious's Avatar
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    Azzarello and Johns have done a brilliant job proving why the old incarnations of Wonder Woman were failures. Men 18-34 don't want to read about love and friendships and all of that crap. They want action and gore with a hot heroine driving the carnage. Keep amping up the violence and keep the gushy carebare hugs to a minimum. If they want WW to reclaim the top selling female spot, more violence.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberious View Post
    Azzarello and Johns have done a brilliant job proving why the old incarnations of Wonder Woman were failures. Men 18-34 don't want to read about love and friendships and all of that crap. They want action and gore with a hot heroine driving the carnage. Keep amping up the violence and keep the gushy carebare hugs to a minimum. If they want WW to reclaim the top selling female spot, more violence.
    If that was true titles like Deathstroke and Suicide Squad would be topping the charts.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberious View Post
    Azzarello and Johns have done a brilliant job proving why the old incarnations of Wonder Woman were failures. Men 18-34 don't want to read about love and friendships and all of that crap.
    Don't they? They must not have liked the emotional drama with minimal "action and gore" in issues 2-4. They must have been appalled by Zola and Wonder Woman's chats about family in 4 and 5. They must have been bored by Wonder Woman's concern for her brothers in 7, and disappointed that her brothers didn't want to fight. They must have hated the talk in 8 of Wonder Woman's love for Zola, almost as much as they hated the characters' tearful reunion and Wonder Woman's decision to negotiate and basically sacrifice herself instead of continuing to fight Hades. They must have been utterly appalled by #9, which, except for one explosion, is all relationships and no action. And they must have found little relief in #10, in which Wonder Woman proclaims her love for everyone and then is released by Hades rather than winning her freedom through force of arms, and in which the one shot our hero fires is not to hurt her enemy but to help her. They must have been bored to tears by Wonder Woman's explanation in 11 of why it was important for Zola to choose her own doctor, and they probably retched when Wonder Woman took time out from fighting in 12 to say how much she was looking forward to kissing Zola's baby. They must have been distraught when Wonder Woman's "fight to the death" with War ended in a hug, and they must have been as mad as War when Wonder Woman refused to kill the Minotaur. Surely they were as mad as Zola that Wonder Woman wouldn't kill Hera, and utterly perplexed by Wonder Woman saying she wouldn't let a friend kill anyone. When Wonder Woman stopped to help a little girl in 13, they must have thought they were reading My Little Pony and thrown it in the trash. And in 14 their disappointment must have been epic when, instead of fighting back when someone shot thousands of knives at her, Diana embraced that person as her sister and made friends with her. It's amazing that so many of them have been reading the book. They must really like seeing blood after a monster has been slain off panel.

    Taking her shackles off to unleash a God force to strike down her opponent.
    I would think the bloodthirsty readers you are imagining would, should they exist, find it ridiculous that she would ever wear cuffs that protect her opponents in the first place. And in this case "strike down her opponent" basically means punching her in the face. In what run has punching ever been too violent for Wonder Woman (or just about any other superhero)?
    Last edited by slvn; 12-16-2012 at 10:00 AM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post

    And as for carrying around edged weapons - well, who needs them when you can tear your opponents limb from limb with your bare hands?
    Or cut off their heads with a fashion accessory.



    See, with Perez, the gore is mostly left to out imagination, but we do see the violent act committed; in Azzarello, in the case of killing the centaur, the reverse is true--we see the gore but not the violent act. I don't think either artistic approach makes the character more or less violent.

    It's interesting that Perez's Wonder Woman says that the Amazons are first and foremost warriors. I had forgotten she put it quite that starkly. It works for me, since I always thought the idea of warriors who fight for peace was central to what makes the Amazons interesting.

  12. #102
    Universal Turing machine cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberious View Post
    Trained by the God of War. Lied to her entire life by those she held dearest. Using an indistructable rope to intimidate answers out of her prey. Using a sword to hack, slash, and behead those in her path. Taking her shackles off to unleash a God force to strike down her opponent. Stabbing the eyes out of a God. Slashing the chest of a five year team mate for trying to go with her to save the man she threw away. Hacking Centaurs into bits.

    DC needs to fully embrace the berserker, uber warrior they have in their arsenal. Take her into full blown Wolverine mode and drop the "Oh I love everyone" crap. She works better as the loose cannon on the JL that they have to keep in check. Wolverine has no problem shoving six knives in the chest of his attacker and neither should Wonder Woman. There is far much more story potential for her to be always on the verge of losing it. It makes all of the stuff I typed above make sense. Even going as far back as Maxwell Lord. She should be the God of War that's trying to occasionally do good as opposed to the muddy hero.
    Yeah, WW as force-of-nature "hero" is my preference too. I wasn't reading JL until some folks on here criticized it, which of course meant I'd probably enjoy it. Your idea of WW becoming DC's Wolverine is awesome, fully abiding by an ancient moral code that is quite foreign to the sentimental Western one that her teammates adhere to. I doubt Azzarello will go there, but Johns might.
    “Wonder Woman is a lame superhero...She flies around in her invisible jet and her weaponry is a lasso that makes you tell the truth. I just don’t get it.” -- Megan Fox

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberious View Post
    Azzarello and Johns have done a brilliant job proving why the old incarnations of Wonder Woman were failures. Men 18-34 don't want to read about love and friendships and all of that crap. They want action and gore with a hot heroine driving the carnage. Keep amping up the violence and keep the gushy carebare hugs to a minimum. If they want WW to reclaim the top selling female spot, more violence.
    Please stop or am I going to snort soft drink out of my nose
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberious View Post
    Azzarello and Johns have done a brilliant job proving why the old incarnations of Wonder Woman were failures. Men 18-34 don't want to read about love and friendships and all of that crap. They want action and gore with a hot heroine driving the carnage. Keep amping up the violence and keep the gushy carebare hugs to a minimum. If they want WW to reclaim the top selling female spot, more violence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    If that was true titles like Deathstroke and Suicide Squad would be topping the charts.
    There you go.

  15. #105
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    I do prefer lots of violence in Wonder Woman comics and if DC ever makes a WW movie my guess is it will be R-Rated because of all the violence. Maybe Wonder Woman will be trapped with some other people just like in the Saw movies and she has to rescue all of them before they die. In the final scene Wonder Woman will fight the Saw villain and maybe he will kill her and she will ascend to become the God of War because of her thirst for vengeance. In the sequel she will try to kill the man who killed her and walk the streets trying to search for her humanity just like John Constantine. At this point Steve Trevor will appear and then Wonder Woman will use him to try and find her humanity.

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