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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    How is she almost Kratos now? Kratos, from what I've heard about him, would have killed the minotaur, killed Hera, killed Artemis, probably killed Siracca, and certainly not proclaimed "I love everyone" or tried to give her mortal enemy Hades the gift of self love. She seems closer to being the anti-Kratos. I know you decided early on that id she couldn't be the epitome of goodness and kindness she might as well be the epitome of violence; but I don't share that simplistic black-and-white view, and besides, she's pretty close to being the epitome of goodness and kindness.
    Sure. Here.

    But the fact is more people read Justice League than Wonder Woman. Which means there are about 50 000 readers in the United States who dont know anything about those things and only know her as Kick-Green-Lanterns-Ass-Can-I-Please-Cut-Their-Heads-Off-Now Woman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    But the fact is more people read Justice League than Wonder Woman. Which means there are about 50 000 readers in the United States who dont know anything about those things and only know her as Kick-Green-Lanterns-Ass-Can-I-Please-Cut-Their-Heads-Off-Now Woman.
    Doesnt mean they dont have to learn they (and Geoff Johns) are wrong.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Doesnt mean they dont have to learn they (and Geoff Johns) are wrong.
    The question is will they get the oppurtunity.

    Azzarello's sales doing well, though not much better than Gail Simone's on Batgirl and she just got dumped by email. But even if he does not meet with early dismissal, he will eventually depart the title.

    And with each successive writer on the book, we seem to more further from Perez #1 and closer to Justice League #11.

    Even covers like this, beautifully drawn as they are, seem to move the process along. How do we sell more WW comics? Tone down the love, amp up the bloodshed.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-15-2012 at 08:29 AM.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The question is will they get the oppurtunity.

    Azzarello's sales doing well, though not much better than Gail Simone's on Batgirl and she just got dumped by email. But even if he does not meet with early dismissal, he will eventually depart the title.

    And with each successive writer on the book, we seem to more further from Perez #1 and closer to Justice League #11.

    Even covers like this, beautifully drawn as they are, seem to move the process along. How do we sell more WW comics? Tone down the love, amp up the bloodshed.
    I don't know how much bloody covers help sales. Maybe they do help. But I think it would be hard to argue that this run as a whole has amped up the bloodshed--at least bloodshed wrought by Wonder Woman. How many times has Wonder Woman shed blood in the last 15 issues? Two or three, counting the blood of undead horses twisted into the shape of centaurs? And I think it would be even harder to argue that this run has toned down the love, when we have seen the character devote her time to protecting a friend she loves, and when we have seen her proclaim her love for everyone, and when we have seen her act compassionately towards those who tried to harm her.

    True, the run isn't going to last forever. I think I get the feeling, especially in reading the solicits, that it's building towards a conclusion; I wouldn't be surprised if Azzarello leaves somewhere around 24 (though that's pure speculation. But it will have sold in the 40's or above for at least its first 16 or 17 issues, and I think it will be hard for a future writer or editor to infer the lesson that the way to match or exceed this feat is to have Wonder Woman engage in a lot of bloodshed. And I think Azzarello will probably leave her at a point where she has refused to be goddess of war, and enough creators seem to respect the work he's doing that there's a good chance that the next person will pick how toughly where he left off.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The question is will they get the oppurtunity.
    That is true, but it's not like Azzarello's books are suddenly going to vanish.

    Azzarello's sales doing well, though not much better than Gail Simone's on Batgirl and she just got dumped by email. But even if he does not meet with early dismissal, he will eventually depart the title.
    The sacking of Simone has (as far as I know) nothing to do with sales and appears to be tied to her not wanting to kill or maim a character in her book, considering she made her writing career on the background about complaining about such things, it is understandable she'd refuse to provide another case.
    In regards to leaving, well, everyone will leave eventually, question is if Johns will leave JL before Azzarello leaves WW? (considering Johns has alot of stuff on his plate already and JL is hardly his best book).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    That is true, but it's not like Azzarello's books are suddenly going to vanish.



    The sacking of Simone has (as far as I know) nothing to do with sales and appears to be tied to her not wanting to kill or maim a character in her book, considering she made her writing career on the background about complaining about such things, it is understandable she'd refuse to provide another case.
    In regards to leaving, well, everyone will leave eventually, question is if Johns will leave JL before Azzarello leaves WW? (considering Johns has alot of stuff on his plate already and JL is hardly his best book).
    We don't know what gonna happen in batgirl and Really, Her roommate is hanging out with James Jr. Shit was going to happen to her out of the sheer fact she is trusting a sociopath who has killed before.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    True, the run isn't going to last forever. I think I get the feeling, especially in reading the solicits, that it's building towards a conclusion; I wouldn't be surprised if Azzarello leaves somewhere around 24 (though that's pure speculation. But it will have sold in the 40's or above for at least its first 16 or 17 issues, and I think it will be hard for a future writer or editor to infer the lesson that the way to match or exceed this feat is to have Wonder Woman engage in a lot of bloodshed. And I think Azzarello will probably leave her at a point where she has refused to be goddess of war, and enough creators seem to respect the work he's doing that there's a good chance that the next person will pick how toughly where he left off.
    My experience in recent years is that writers respect what other writers are doing, but not necessarily what they have done.

    It's hard for me to envisage Wonder Woman ever being written exactly like Red Sonja or Lady Death. But I think it is possible that she could be written enough like those characters that hers is not a book I would want to read [and for the record, I already buy Lady Death].

    There's also the whole Amazon sex killers and daughter of Zeus motiff. Personally its not my current intention to spend money on the book under any writer while those are both still in place.
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  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    How is she almost Kratos now? Kratos, from what I've heard about him, would have killed the minotaur, killed Hera, killed Artemis, probably killed Siracca, and certainly not proclaimed "I love everyone" or tried to give her mortal enemy Hades the gift of self love. She seems closer to being the anti-Kratos. I know you decided early on that id she couldn't be the epitome of goodness and kindness she might as well be the epitome of violence; but I don't share that simplistic black-and-white view, and besides, she's pretty close to being the epitome of goodness and kindness.
    Well, if it was Kratos-
    -Minotaur would've been gored with its own horns.
    -Hera, it depends. He broke her neck in GoW canon just for badmouthing Pandora, but before that he was more than content to leave her alone even after she set Hercules on him and trapped him in a maze.
    -Artemis, yeah either dead, or she might've slept with him for that obligatory mini
    -Siracca- actually, Kratos while insanely brutal, isn't too keen on on killing young girls (they remind him of his daughter).

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Sure. Here.

    But the fact is more people read Justice League than Wonder Woman. Which means there are about 50 000 readers in the United States who dont know anything about those things and only know her as Kick-Green-Lanterns-Ass-Can-I-Please-Cut-Their-Heads-Off-Now Woman.
    That would require that none of those readers had ever heard of the character before.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Even covers like this, beautifully drawn as they are, seem to move the process along. How do we sell more WW comics? Tone down the love, amp up the bloodshed.
    Oh for- you've got to be kidding me. Are you serious? So what, you're accusing Chiang of just putting blood on the covers to sell issues? Do you even know how ridiculous that sounds?

    And what, was this cover not good enough for you?

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    -Siracca- actually, Kratos while insanely brutal, isn't too keen on on killing young girls (they remind him of his daughter).
    Even 90-year-old "young girls" who are trying to kill him?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    Oh for- you've got to be kidding me. Are you serious? So what, you're accusing Chiang of just putting blood on the covers to sell issues? Do you even know how ridiculous that sounds?

    And what, was this cover not good enough for you?
    Its not an accusation, its an theory. Are you saying Chiang drew blood all over the cover because he think it would NOT help sales?

    The cover for 18, and the cover for #2 and #4, both featured heaps of blood. Oceans of it, in the case of #2. Obviously putting that on every cover is going to dilute the impact but I think I am safe in saying the general trend in this volume and since the reboot has been to show Diana and her world as having a higher level of violence.

    Sure, Perez had her killing monsters in his run, but the difference between that and what we see now is like the difference between Jason and the Argonauts and 300.

    I would also point out that cover has nothing to do with what goes on inside the book. Were I more cynical, I might raise and eyebrow at the depiction of a woman using sex as a weapon.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Even 90-year-old "young girls" who are trying to kill him?
    Yeah He Doesn't like fighting Women on Average. Female Monsters are fair game but Actual Women and Gods he isn't too keen on Killing. Its the Main Reason He was So sad after Zues Tricked him into killing Athena. Also The reason why he Didn't kill Pandora until she begged him too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Its not an accusation, its an theory. Are you saying Chiang drew blood all over the cover because he think it would NOT help sales?
    I think he is saying Chiang is smarter than that. The blood might attract the Saw and Walking Dead crowd, but his intentions has nothing to do with that they like.

    The cover for 18, and the cover for #2 and #4, both featured heaps of blood. Oceans of it, in the case of #2. Obviously putting that on every cover is going to dilute the impact but I think I am safe in saying the general trend in this volume and since the reboot has been to show Diana and her world as having a higher level of violence.
    High? In comparison to what exactly?

    Sure, Perez had her killing monsters in his run, but the difference between that and what we see now is like the difference between Jason and the Argonauts and 300.
    I thought Perez looked better than all the stop motion skeletons :)

    I would also point out that cover has nothing to do with what goes on inside the book. Were I more cynical, I might raise and eyebrow at the depiction of a woman using sex as a weapon.
    Normally the covers bear certain hints of what's inside, some are in your face and some are more symbolic in nature.
    All the blood on the cover could simply be alluding to what blood-relations Diana has, so perhaps Ares is simply going to inform her of the extent of her family?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think I am safe in saying the general trend in this volume and since the reboot has been to show Diana and her world as having a higher level of violence.

    Sure, Perez had her killing monsters in his run, but the difference between that and what we see now is like the difference between Jason and the Argonauts and 300.
    How many monsters has she killed in the current run? It was only one undead horse (warped into a centaur), right? Or maybe she also killed the lava monster in #7. I don't think you can count the shades in Hades; they were clearly already dead. So, what other blood has she drawn? A little from Aleka's nose or Artemis lip. I don't see how you can say that this amounts to a noticeably higher level of violence on her part than in volume 2 or 3. There is, in fact, probably less fighting overall in this volume than in many previous runs.

    More violence in her world? Yes, maybe. But this run is proving that Wonder Woman can sell if she is a loving, noble and heroic soul in a mysterious and sometimes horrific world. So, if anything, this run is making it less likely that Wonder Woman will be transformed into a violent anti-hero.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-15-2012 at 05:37 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    How many monsters has she killed in the current run? It was only one undead horse (warped into a centaur), right? Or maybe she also killed the lava monster in #7. I don't think you can count the shades in Hades; they were clearly already dead. So, what other blood has she drawn? A little from Aleka's nose or Artemis lip. I don't see how you can say that this amounts to a noticeably higher level of violence on her part than in volume 2 or 3. There is, in fact, probably less fighting overall in this volume than in many previous runs.

    More violence in her world? Yes, maybe. But this run is proving that Wonder Woman can sell if she is a loving, noble and heroic soul in a mysterious and sometimes horrific world. So, if anything, this run is making it less likely that Wonder Woman will be transformed into a violent anti-hero.
    Unless I am mistaken, she cut the arm off one, and later eviscerated the other witb her bare hands and left its entrails all over the street.
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    I think the whole thing is overanalyzed, personally. This issue has to do with her time with Ares. The cover illustrates that connection. Ares has often been seen covered in blood, leaving bloody footprints and the like. And in this cover Diana is covered in it too. Symbolism. All it is in my view.

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