Women, Adversity, and Comics : How Far is Too Far?

[Paradox]

Kees_L brings back the wavy flashback lines:

Did you just write that, like as of your own accord, mister God-Writer-in-disguise? You win again, as I'd be your pawn, thìs time....

I only rarely mope. But I so like the sound of the word.
Mope.
Mope is awesome, especially when pronounced in a strictly mopy fashion.
Do it sometime: when you'd be moping you should try and say "I'm only moping here... Don't mind my mopin'..."
So awesome it'll cheer you up in no time!

Speaking of God-writers, this makes me a trifle melancholy, as I do miss Mope, who was a poster and writer of estimable ability back in the old days (partnered up a lot with Conn Seanery AKA Wheat Lad back then).

[Dizzy D]

Speaking of God-writers, this makes me a trifle melancholy, as I do miss Mope, who was a poster and writer of estimable ability back in the old days (partnered up a lot with Conn Seanery AKA Wheat Lad back then).

That's long, long ago. Can't even remember Conn having another name (he's been Conn since at least 2001 AFAIK).

[Paradox]

It wasn't Conn's posting name, just the name of his character on the old "Never Ending Board" group writing thingy that eventually morphed into the current Artist and Writer Showcase. Circa 2000, give or take couple of years either way.

EDIT: Ah, I see how I confused you. They partnered up "back then", not that he was Wheat Lad back then...well, he was, but...

[GarageGlamorous]

Just to pinpoint one bit, I very much disagree about that. Catwoman was not oversexualized, she was very true to her character. That her and her #1 interest Batman had sex should not be shocking to anyone who's watched cable TV, in my opinion. Or network TV, really. To me it was such a non-issue, and made such sense and didn't seem at all gratuitous. There's nothing wrong with sexuality. And sure, she uses sexuality to say make a gangster feel safe before attacking him, this is her thing. She has always been a seductress femme fatale. Plus, we get a very candid strong narration in that series, and her character was very well realized, not simplified. It was really well done I'd say. But, that's just my take.

In general, sexuality being vilified is a problem. If something in a comic book looks like it was in any way drawn with making the character look sexually alluring, somebody usually posts that they found it unnecessary. Art and sex go way back, it's a good thing. But, I do get that there'll never be a consensus on these things.

One bit I will agree on is that how they changed Amanda Waller is very very silly. Plus in general, it would be nice to see more body types represented in comics. And that there is something that goes both ways, seeing a big breasted woman and saying "that is bad!" is also silly.

I'm not saying a woman using sexuality in comics is a bad thing, it's just how it's utilized. The fact that Selina has a "magically unzipping zipper", the cheesecake poses, the corny sex jokes, none of it screams "femme fatale", it all screams "tacky and pandering". Femme fatales are supposed to have an heir of class and mystery around them, Nu52 Selina does not. From what I've read, Brubaker did a much better job fulfilling the classic femme fatale archetype; Catwoman was inspired by Old Hollywood actresses after all.

[Charles RB]

Truer words were never spoken. The real shame is that far more people have read IC than the excellent Dear Billy.

I'm going to read it again right now to make up the numbers.

I don't know how the heck Ennis got brought into this discussion in the first place. The guy really is not a superhero writer period.

I can only think of one straight superhero story he's ever written, "The Thousand" for Spider-Man: Tangled Web. (Maybe Midnighter too, depending on your POV)

That's actually surprisingly good; Ennis either gets Spider-Man or he does a very good job at faking it. The sight of a bruised and bloodied Peter without his mask on, calmly telling the old school bully turned villain "I'm not scared of you at all", is a punch-the-air Spidey moment.

What I want to know is, where is the torrent of feminist criticism of Neil Gaiman's mistreatment of Element Girl?

I guess they like it because it's a really good story.

[Michael P]

Or that Gaiman doesn't "mistreat" the character at all (whatever the hell that means), his portrayal being a sensitive and sympathetic portrayal of someone in a deep depression who doesn't see any point in continuing to live. I'm not saying I agree with Element Girl's point of view, but reading the story, I understand it.

It's also possible, just possible, that the feminist criticism of portrayals of women in comics is not equivalent with the strawman portrayal of that criticism as flying into hysterics any time something bad happens to a woman in a comic book.

[Michael P]

Empathy for and attachment to the characters are disallowed. The intent of their original creators is deliberately disregarded, to the point that it's uncouth to mention it.

There's good reason for that, and it's because from a critical standpoint, those things don't matter. They have nothing to do with evaluating the story as a story.

I also like how your definition of "empathy" is apparently "something bad happened to a character I like! Waaaaaaaaah!"

[king mob]

Yeah, exactly. I don't know how the heck Ennis got brought into this discussion in the first place. The guy really is not a superhero writer period.

-Brian

You'd think people will have sussed that Ennis really, really fucking hates superheroes.

[king mob]

Catwoman was not oversexualized, she was very true to her character.

Assuming that character leaps across rooftops with her tits and arse hanging out and bingo, there's her character for all to see.

[Vibranium]

Assuming that character leaps across rooftops with her tits and arse hanging out and bingo, there's her character for all to see.

especially in Arkham City, if that neckline was any deeper, you'd be able to do a gyno exam

[Gothos]

Objectification is one thing. I'm more annoyed at how women heroes dont get to do much. And really has there been a high level woman badguy?

Give an example of a "high level" male Big Bad for comparison first, please.

[Gothos]

It's more commentary than a straight answer, but...

Clever cartoon, but I wouldn't buy the idea that the muscularity of male heroes comes totally out of male fantasy. There are, after all, women who like men "big and stupid," like the song says.

[Jeff Brady]

There's good reason for that, and it's because from a critical standpoint, those things don't matter. They have nothing to do with evaluating the story as a story.

I also like how your definition of "empathy" is apparently "something bad happened to a character I like! Waaaaaaaaah!"

Mike, you are addressing a brick wall.

[Gothos]

Disagree. With very few exceptions, female characters in superhero books, including those female superheroes that headlined their own books, were essentially written as noticably lesser than their male counterparts in the Golden, Silver and Bronze Ages. At best, they were two-dimensional characters, but generally written the same as male characters with skirts (until the male hero showed up, when they were almost universally depicted as lesser). There were a lot of excesses in the post-Moore/Miller/Chaykin era, but at leat you could argue that the principle architects of that era wrote women as women.

Also, some of us find the characteristic violence without consequence in most Silver/Bronze Age superhero comics to be no fun at all.

Lesser in what way?

For instance, Silver Age Supergirl stories were allegedly written with girl readers in mind, so the subject matter is a little more "girly." But the stories don't make Supergirl particularly weaker or less effective than Superman that I can see.

[Froggy]

You'd think people will have sussed that Ennis really, really fucking hates superheroes.

Yeah this should be pretty obvious with like, every issue of The Boys