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  1. #106
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Gail Simone is off of Batgirl

    and im guessing her time with DC is coming to an end in the near future
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  2. #107
    Say WHAT?!?!?!? FanboyStranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    Gail Simone is off of Batgirl

    and im guessing her time with DC is coming to an end in the near future
    I'm a fan of Gail's, but could care less about Batgirl. I'm hoping that she will find a project that makes the best out of her irreverent authorial voice. I know she has a Kickstarter going with Jim Caliafore.

  3. #108
    Lenient Tyrant/Moderator Brian Cronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    Oh damn yes. Comic fandom is a poorer place if we can't tell the difference between Identity Crisis and Dear Billy.
    Yeah, exactly. I don't know how the heck Ennis got brought into this discussion in the first place. The guy really is not a superhero writer period.

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  4. #109
    Hardcover addict dupont2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I don't think it's a large leap to conclude that the specific problem of violence against women in superhero books is related to the larger problem of dark and destructive writing in superhero books. It's also a big reason why too many superhero books are no fun to read anymore.
    Dark and destructive writing exists in other genres without quite the same problems as super hero comics.
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  5. #110
    I am the law. PsychoGoatee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarageGlamorous View Post
    Whether it was the drastic over-sexualization and simplification of Catwoman
    Just to pinpoint one bit, I very much disagree about that. Catwoman was not oversexualized, she was very true to her character. That her and her #1 interest Batman had sex should not be shocking to anyone who's watched cable TV, in my opinion. Or network TV, really. To me it was such a non-issue, and made such sense and didn't seem at all gratuitous. There's nothing wrong with sexuality. And sure, she uses sexuality to say make a gangster feel safe before attacking him, this is her thing. She has always been a seductress femme fatale. Plus, we get a very candid strong narration in that series, and her character was very well realized, not simplified. It was really well done I'd say. But, that's just my take.

    In general, sexuality being vilified is a problem. If something in a comic book looks like it was in any way drawn with making the character look sexually alluring, somebody usually posts that they found it unnecessary. Art and sex go way back, it's a good thing. But, I do get that there'll never be a consensus on these things.

    One bit I will agree on is that how they changed Amanda Waller is very very silly. Plus in general, it would be nice to see more body types represented in comics. And that there is something that goes both ways, seeing a big breasted woman and saying "that is bad!" is also silly.
    Last edited by PsychoGoatee; 12-10-2012 at 12:36 AM.
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  6. #111
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupont2005 View Post
    Dark and destructive writing exists in other genres without quite the same problems as super hero comics.
    What I want to know is, where is the torrent of feminist criticism of Neil Gaiman's mistreatment of Element Girl?
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  7. #112
    They call me Mr. Pip! the4thpip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    What I want to know is, where is the torrent of feminist criticism of Neil Gaiman's mistreatment of Element Girl?
    That story was all about her. She basically made the lead characters of the book ... well, not even guest stars. Sandman, I think, did not show up once in the book. It was an issue about his sister Death, but Element Girl was front and center in that issue. And she gets a dignified, beautiful departure from this mortal coil.

    It's a perfect example of what does NOT constitute "Women in Refrigerators".
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  8. #113
    They call me Mr. Pip! the4thpip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep_Sleeper View Post

    I do have to re-iterate: What do women consider to be sexualized images of men? Are there such things?
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  9. #114
    Hell yeah! Kees_L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    What I want to know is, where is the torrent of feminist criticism of Neil Gaiman's mistreatment of Element Girl?
    Why?

    Maybe it's because readers being into Gaiman's stuff would tend to be open-minded? Like enough to be open towards when a title like Gaiman's Sandman means to specifically address "the marginalisation of women" within its narrative?
    I'd say the whole world of Gaiman's Sandman seems to distance itself enough from ordinary (crummy) superhero universes, to allow itself to be about actual storytelling?

    Although apparently some criticasters felt Gaiman should have offered a solution beyond merely determining how youthful looks being gone could work as a narrative element to making a female comics character become to self-destruct?
    As if to say: no fictional character should be made to die for the "wrong" reasons?
    But would that be how it is 'though?
    If a comics title or mini-series decides or can allow for a character to really change, get affected lastingly, or die even, then I'd say writers or creators would jump at that chance, with however making such as being to mean something?
    Which wouldn't need to be only uppy and rosey-cheeked rainbowy happiness? But instead - like in this case - a societal or moral thing leading to a female comics character to be blowing herself up, same as a jealous and mean fairytale queen wishing to be fairest of the land or bust?

    I'd think anyone understands how grimness or darkness or painful crap or either rejectable or unwarranted behavior narratively wouldn't be anything bad on its own, or only when it's handled or put forth poorly?
    And I'd say Gaiman or Moore or Miller or Ennis aren't merely serving up gore and sex for the hell of it into anything. They make thrill- or action-oriented stories of fiction. Which dictates the content to neededly be about thrill and suspense and grimness or darkness significantly. Not to preach or advocate the fuckin' devil, but to address or be to point towards stuff thematically, which readers may feel affected by, since that'd be the point.
    Same as Tarantino sort of paraphrasing comics or B-movies in general for the sake of specifically addressing either excessive violence or like the supposed violence glorification, both as turning deemable objectification/marginalisation into emancipation or empowerment.

    I personally really wouldn't get anyone not getting that.

    EDIT: Coke or hot cacao + cream (with chocolate sprinkles) to the4thpip! (choose one)
    Last edited by Kees_L; 12-10-2012 at 07:11 AM.
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  10. #115
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the4thpip View Post
    That story was all about her. She basically made the lead characters of the book ... well, not even guest stars. Sandman, I think, did not show up once in the book. It was an issue about his sister Death, but Element Girl was front and center in that issue. And she gets a dignified, beautiful departure from this mortal coil.

    It's a perfect example of what does NOT constitute "Women in Refrigerators".
    Well, perhaps not precisely; not in the Killing Joke sense, to be sure. But it's my understanding that Gaiman specifically chose Element Girl to pick on because he believed that the character was too obscure to have a vocal fan base. That in itself suggests a guilty awareness of wrongdoing on his part.

    Nothing about the character as she was depicted by Bob Haney and Ramona Fradon suggests that she would turn into some kind of tormented figure yearning for an unachievable suicide, either. She was made for different and brighter stories than the one Gaiman told with her. You may call this a stroke of genius, but all I see here is archness, condescension, and an attitude of 'wouldn't it be cool to turn a minor Silver Age heroine into a tormented figure.' And these attitudes are things I've grown tired of seeing.

    And even less than that, what I don't understand is the fundamentalist auteurism that's invoked to shield Gaiman from criticism on these grounds. Empathy for and attachment to the characters are disallowed. The intent of their original creators is deliberately disregarded, to the point that it's uncouth to mention it. They are pawns in the hands of the god-writers, and no more.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  11. #116
    Hell yeah! Kees_L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    And even less than that, what I don't understand is the fundamentalist auteurism that's invoked to shield Gaiman from criticism on these grounds. Empathy for and attachment to the characters are disallowed. The intent of their original creators is deliberately disregarded, to the point that it's uncouth to mention it. They are pawns in the hands of the god-writers, and no more.
    Yes, you are speaking truth, creative makers are controlling our fictions!
    And we as readers can only be pawns in the hands of the god-writers!
    Pawns! Hands everywhere! But who listens should we mope?
    Been called a 'good egg'. Been told to rock, been told to steady myself. Been told to (please) be goin' places.
    Chillingly good stuff besides Mignola, Slint, M, Knut and really big chunks of tinfoil?
    Half sunk in the mud, with one eye showing / a cracked smile and hair still growing /
    your hands miles apart, as if they'd never met / you were the happiest I'd seen you yet
    . ~
    (full) lyrics to 'Exhume' by Bedhead.

  12. #117
    Nyah! Paradox's Avatar
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    You sure did use a lot of words to say "I didn't like what was done, therefore it's sexist". You make a lot of assumptions of intent that I don't see how you get. Like...

    That in itself suggests a guilty awareness of wrongdoing on his part.
    Alternatively, he could just be sensitive about killing off someone's favorite, not guilty.

    The rest of your post just reads from a petulant angle only. The reason he doesn't get "feminist criticism" for it is because there's nothing of that nature to criticize. All your points are mostly irrelevant to that subject, like not caring what the original creators wanted. Nothing whatsoever to do with it.
    'Dox out.

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  13. #118
    Nyah! Paradox's Avatar
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    Kees_L sees the clear...well, brown and muddy light:

    Yes, you are speaking truth, creative makers are controlling our fictions!
    And we as readers can only be pawns in the hands of the god-writers!
    Pawns! Hands everywhere! But who listens should we mope?
    I think NOT!

    I'm more of a sulker.
    'Dox out.

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  14. #119
    Hell yeah! Kees_L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    I think NOT!

    I'm more of a sulker.
    Did you just write that, like as of your own accord, mister God-Writer-in-disguise? You win again, as I'd be your pawn, ths time....

    I only rarely mope. But I so like the sound of the word.
    Mope.
    Mope is awesome, especially when pronounced in a strictly mopy fashion.
    Do it sometime: when you'd be moping you should try and say "I'm only moping here... Don't mind my mopin'..."
    So awesome it'll cheer you up in no time!
    Been called a 'good egg'. Been told to rock, been told to steady myself. Been told to (please) be goin' places.
    Chillingly good stuff besides Mignola, Slint, M, Knut and really big chunks of tinfoil?
    Half sunk in the mud, with one eye showing / a cracked smile and hair still growing /
    your hands miles apart, as if they'd never met / you were the happiest I'd seen you yet
    . ~
    (full) lyrics to 'Exhume' by Bedhead.

  15. #120
    Senior Member Dizzy D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I don't think it's a large leap to conclude that the specific problem of violence against women in superhero books is related to the larger problem of dark and destructive writing in superhero books. It's also a big reason why too many superhero books are no fun to read anymore.
    I'd say it's more a problem of the superhero genre itself: there are three roles within the average superhero story: hero, villain and victim. These roles can be filled with a group or individuals and sometimes one can fill various roles at once, but the victim role is usually the least interesting (motivation for the hero to actually do something) and traditionally the one female characters usually end up in. Combine with threat escalation (you can't have the villain rob a bank when he was threatening to blow up the world two storylines ago) and you have your current problem.

    The only way around that is good writing; breaking through the standard formula (maybe we can write comics about something else than "hero punches villain, the end.") or at least doing the formula well (flesh out the characters, switch the roles around etc.).

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