PREVIEW: Batman #15

[Captain Jim]

Being a Senior Member isn't all it's cracked up to be. The mods don't send you Christmas cards or anything.

Merry Christmas, tylenoljones!!

[InformationGeek]

Snyder's dialogue ranges from bad-great in certain parts of each issue but then again I never thought there were any good dialogue writers in comics. I'm spoiled as a reader of Elmore Leonard and David Mamet and a watcher of Tarantino and being an English major. To me, dialogue is something that can be overlooked in comics unless its atrocious and lets face it, this isn't as atrocious as Liefeld's was

Dialogue doesn't leave much of an impact on me unless its really really good or painfully bad. Almost every comic I read I find that dialogue just fine, like this comic, and so I don't find it to be that much of a bother. From Vaughn to Johns and from Morrison to Bendis, it all doesn't matter since it all blurs together for me.

The only exception that I find where the dialogue ever stood out in a very spectular way was Saucer Country, especially in issue two. I just got sucked into it like I never have before.

[Mr. Holmes]

Snyder's dialogue ranges from bad-great in certain parts of each issue but then again I never thought there were any good dialogue writers in comics. I'm spoiled as a reader of Elmore Leonard and David Mamet and a watcher of Tarantino and being an English major. To me, dialogue is something that can be overlooked in comics unless its atrocious and lets face it, this isn't as atrocious as Liefeld's was

I think the main problem I have with Snyder's dialogue is that it has the imagery-heavy prose style that is prevalent in writers like Moore and Delano, but it's not nearly as skilled. So that's why the dialogue feels lacking.

[Captain Jim]

I just finished deleting several posts, primarily from two persons (you know who you are).

For everyone's benefit, allow me to quote Rule #5 from the Batman Forum "Rules of the Road" (stickied at top of page):

5. Discuss the topic, not each other. You can criticize stories, you can pick apart arguments; what you cannot do is make the discussion about your fellow posters. If you dislike another poster, you're free not to respond to them. If they're being a pest, you're free to report them. But these threads are not for personal discussions.

[dubbauw]

I think the main problem I have with Snyder's dialogue is that it has the imagery-heavy prose style that is prevalent in writers like Moore and Delano, but it's not nearly as skilled. So that's why the dialogue feels lacking.

Agreed, but hopefully he has the potential to become that skilled. I honestly think his creative writing background hurts him here. He's been brought up in a style where his prose would be great and he needs to transition a little more towards this medium. Plus he's been around for what, 3-4 years? I'll give him at least one more year before it might bother me a little.

(p.s. off topic, but you a Sherlock fan? The awesome BBC one, I mean. Best show on television! Sucks it won't be back for a while... )

[tylenoljones]

Merry Christmas, tylenoljones!!

Lol. Thanks Jim!

(Although I guess now I have to get you guys something... darn it.)

[Mr. Holmes]

Agreed, but hopefully he has the potential to become that skilled. I honestly think his creative writing background hurts him here. He's been brought up in a style where his prose would be great and he needs to transition a little more towards this medium. Plus he's been around for what, 3-4 years? I'll give him at least one more year before it might bother me a little.

I think the prose style itself is fine. I love the way that kind of thing is done by the writers I mentioned above, though I would say it might be over done in Snyder's case, especially when you have such an expressive artist like Capullo who may not even need words at all to tell the story.

The thing I feel about Snyder's dialogue is that it's certainly better than most writers, but because of that prose style he does, I tend to find myself judging it on higher standards. Like the symbolism where he narrates an anecdote in the beginning of the issue is way too banal and predictable, and the metaphors are way too heavy handed (How many times did we get "Do you know what Owls do to Bats" in Court of Owls?).

(p.s. off topic, but you a Sherlock fan? The awesome BBC one, I mean. Best show on television! Sucks it won't be back for a while... )

Yup, Sherlock Holmes is my favorite literary character in general.

PS: Sorry Jim, got carried away.

[dubbauw]

I think the prose style itself is fine. I love the way that kind of thing is done by the writers I mentioned above, though I would say it might be over done in Snyder's case, especially when you have such an expressive artist like Capullo who may not even need words at all to tell the story.

The thing I feel about Snyder's dialogue is that it's certainly better than most writers, but because of that prose style he does, I tend to find myself judging it on higher standards. Like the symbolism where he narrates an anecdote in the beginning of the issue is way too banal and predictable, and the metaphors are way too heavy handed (How many times did we get "Do you know what Owls do to Bats" in Court of Owls?).

So basically higher level of difficulty, so more room to critique? Makes sense. And it does seem like a lot of issues begin with long narrations like in #13, and this preview. Not sure what other ones he does it in, but there do seem to be a lot of metaphors.

[Retro315]

Agreed, but hopefully he has the potential to become that skilled. I honestly think his creative writing background hurts him here. He's been brought up in a style where his prose would be great and he needs to transition a little more towards this medium. Plus he's been around for what, 3-4 years? I'll give him at least one more year before it might bother me a little.

(p.s. off topic, but you a Sherlock fan? The awesome BBC one, I mean. Best show on television! Sucks it won't be back for a while... )

I'm in agreement here, too, although I'd probably word it more like "He's had trouble recognizing the need to adapt to the new medium, and all the unabashed critical acclaim isn't going to teach him how to be a better comics writer". Also that I'll give him at least a year or two more before I take him seriously at all. But "E for Effort" isn't part of any standardized rubrics I've ever utilized to grade assignments.

In a world of comics as mediocre as the Big Two usually put out, I can certainly say "He's not terrible" is kind of a pretty big compliment, back-handed or not. And nobody can fault his uncanny skill to track down good artists like a pig digging up truffles.

I know the question wasn't aimed squarely at me, but YES, Sherlock, yes. They begin filming in March. It feels like a lifetime already and it hasn't even been a year since Reichenbach.

[adkal]

I know the question wasn't aimed squarely at me, but YES, Sherlock, yes. They begin filming in March. It feels like a lifetime already and it hasn't even been a year since Reichenbach.

...I thought filming was to start in January...

[DarkKnghtJared]

Agreed. It won't happen, but agreed.

Some people very well can write better dialogue, but I smiled a little when I read Batman's kind of "stock aggressive one-liners" because they reminded me of "The Clown at Midnight", where we learn that Batman purposefully uses these kind of cheesy aggressive lines to provoke predictable reactions. Lines like "IT'S OVER!" and "YOU'RE FILTH".

I have no idea whether Snyder was thinking of this and just left it unsaid, or if he revels in the cheesy one-liners, or if (here comes the flood) Morrison's work five years ago is the only thing that validates this work now. I can't say. I just know there's a precedent for why Batman's dialogue comes off campy and overly melodramatic sometimes.

What else? Well, Snyder basically just switched Harvey for that facsimile of Harvey in The Dark Knight, and borrowed heavily from that Joker "wanna know why I use a knife/which of your friends are cowards" rant. And the guys in trees with bazookas are variations on a theme of say, guys with grappel guns taking down helicopters. Tropes are tropes, this isn't good or bad, just something worth pointing out. The end'll be justifying the means on this one. (Or not!)

But it's pretty clear to me that despite the makeover into 1993 Todd MacFarlane's "Joker", this is meant to be read as if it's the Heath Ledger version. Except less funny (hey, it's comics, there's no sound, no voice actor so it's impossible to do timing-based funny ... laying on the railing like Bugs Bunny was a nice move by Capullo).

Plus, that's really just how Batman talks to villains like this--always has, always will. Outwardly, he doesn't give a crap about whatever motivation or what big plan they have--the villain is hurting others, so Batman's going to stop him. Reacting like this is him basically saying that he doesn't give two craps about Joker's whole "court jester" stichk, and he's going to kick Joker's ass and throw him back in Arkham--the only difference is that they're going to have to do skin graft's from Joker's ass and thighs to fix up that stupid face of his.

As for how Snyder's writing his Joker...I can see a little bit of Heath, sure. I also see a bit of the DKR Joker (who wasn't so much of a jokey guy, just a psychopath who thought he was funny) and even a bit of B:TAS Joker, in that he has a lot of elaborate death traps prepared at all times.

Personally, I'm more middle of the road with Snyder's Batman myself. I'm enjoying it and there have been issues that I thought were absolutely brilliant but there have also been places and issues that I thought were weak. It's hard to hold any kind discussion about it though when you've got two other groups going at each other every single time any preview topic on it appears. That's why I find myself not caring enough to comment about it since it's only going to get lost in the wash of the other "discussion". I find it really frustrating since I'd really like to discuss the issues but I don't want to wade through ten pages of wank from both sides just to do so.

I'm with you--I kinda like that he goes BIG for his stories. Even if it stumbles along the way, I can appreciate his "this is my only shot, so I'm gonna throw all that I have at it" perspective. Even the weaker issues weren't awful or anything.

The thing with Snyder is that he was at the beginning SO HYPED UP by the fans that those who didn't view it as the best thing as sliced bread seemed to have taken it VERY personally.

I realize that. But that's all information most of us, as fans, are privy to. Perhaps not the exact number of eye movements Batman has memorized or whatever, but we get it. Joker is unpredictable and hard to read. That's common sense. He's standing there with his face skin dangling off his head.

Think back to that scene in The Dark Knight Rises where Bane broke Bruce's back (or, for that matter, when Joker attacked Alfred in this very arc). Not much in the way of talking, no music, just Bruce's face getting punched in. Sometimes silence can be much more effective.

Eh...on that page, the only really superfluous/purple parts of that page page are the first and last two captions. Everything thing else is finishing a complete thought. Saying the amount of micro-expressions and pupil dilation there are in the eyes makes sense because that speaks to one of his strengths and one of his weaknesses: he is extremely intelligent and observant, but those two aspects of him also creates a bit of arrogance about him. He feels the need to know everything because he needs that kind of control in his life; and it's that arrogance that can bite him in the ass from time to time (see Court of Owls) and if he encounters something he can't figure out, it throws him off his game (such as now).

As for comparing it to the Bane scene--now, I've only seen Rises once (I want to get the Blu-Ray, but I'm sure it's going to be an X-Mas present this year so I'm waiting on it), but I seem to remember Bane monologuing a LOT in that scene. "You merely adopted the darkness--I was BORN in it!" "I wonder what would break first, the mind, or the body." And so on and so forth.

Hey, you'll get there someday. Just 1700 more posts!

Besides, being a Senior Member isn't all it's cracked up to be. The mods don't send you Christmas cards or anything. Plus the term Senior just makes us sound old, you know? I'd prefer something more complimentary, like "Kick-Ass Member", or "Very Handsome Member".

It really is just a sign that you have a LOT of free time on your hands.

Yeah. We've already got explosions, deaths and fist fights. Maybe he means it picks up plotwise? Meaning we'll get to see how Joker plans to make Batman turn on his allies.

I took it to mean that we'll see his plans in the Asylum with this issue. I mean, remember that this will be the half-way point of the story.

I'm in agreement here, too, although I'd probably word it more like "He's had trouble recognizing the need to adapt to the new medium, and all the unabashed critical acclaim isn't going to teach him how to be a better comics writer". Also that I'll give him at least a year or two more before I take him seriously at all. But "E for Effort" isn't part of any standardized rubrics I've ever utilized to grade assignments.

In a world of comics as mediocre as the Big Two usually put out, I can certainly say "He's not terrible" is kind of a pretty big compliment, back-handed or not. And nobody can fault his uncanny skill to track down good artists like a pig digging up truffles.

I know the question wasn't aimed squarely at me, but YES, Sherlock, yes. They begin filming in March. It feels like a lifetime already and it hasn't even been a year since Reichenbach.

I don't know--from what I've seen of interviews with him, it does seem like he does at least listen to the criticism he's gotten, and I think he's gotten a LOT better at working in the comics field. I mean, compare these few issues to the first few issues of American Vampire, and he's definitely leaned down in his wordiness.

[tylenoljones]

As for comparing it to the Bane scene--now, I've only seen Rises once (I want to get the Blu-Ray, but I'm sure it's going to be an X-Mas present this year so I'm waiting on it), but I seem to remember Bane monologuing a LOT in that scene. "You merely adopted the darkness--I was BORN in it!" "I wonder what would break first, the mind, or the body." And so on and so forth.

I was referring more to the specific parts of the scene with Bane shattering Batman's mask and breaking his back. Taking the entire scene as a whole, Bane was indeed kind of talky at times and i didn't really like it there either. It was almost as though Nolan was uncomfortable with the silence.

Anyway, the scene earlier in this arc where Alfred was attacked is a better comparison. Imagine if there'd been a wall of text on that page? I realize this was just an image of the Joker, but you've got a great artist who can more than adequetely convey Batman's fear just through pictures alone (as seen in The Court of Owls arc, specifically when Bruce was drugged in the maze).

It's weird, because usually I'm the one who complains about comics being such a short read. You'd think I'd want more text. I think it just really speaks to Capullo's storytelling abilities. I don't feel the need for more information beyond what he's showing, at times.

[JasonTodd428]

It's weird, because usually I'm the one who complains about comics being such a short read. You'd think I'd want more text. I think it just really speaks to Capullo's storytelling abilities. I don't feel the need for more information beyond what he's showing, at times.

Which says alot for Capullo's art. The man is an absolutely brilliant artist and I'm really digging his work here myself. Having said that though there are likely people that do need that extra information beyond what the art shows. There are even times I appreciate that extra bit of information, overly wordy or not. Keeps me from feeling like I missed something along the way when I failed to look at the art as closely as I should have.

[Raptor13]

Out of all of snyders 'wordiness', there is only one scene where I didn't like it in his whole run: the motorcycle scene last issue. And even then it wasn't bad, I just totally agree that it could have been perfect with no dialogue at all. As for how I read the joker, I think it comes out beautifully read in mark Hamills voice

[CBR News]

"DEATH OF THE FAMILY" continues here!
The Joker's attacks have taken their toll on Batman and his allies, and now they have to face the impossible.
The final madness of The Joker's plan revealed here! Why is he more dangerous now than ever before?
Plus: In the backup feature, witness The Joker's confrontation with the Riddler as the horror of The Joker's plan is revealed.
This issue is also offered as a combo pack edition with a redemption code for a digital download of this issue.

Source: [a href="http://shelf-life.ew.com/2012/12/06/batman-15-preview/" target="_blank"]EW.com[/a]


Full preview here.