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  1. #31
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Byrne's Superman tends to consciously pose, as well, while his Clark isn't the hunched over schlubb of old, or the dynamic dashing reporter, he's a fairly comfortable, but flawed yuppie-looking dude. He's just this guy.

    I like that in theory, but in execution, Byrne's Superman/Clark annoyed me. Especially when he was so weak-minded, executing some criminals gave him a split personality that would go punch poor people's teeth out in the ghetto of Metropolis or whatever. (But also so strong-minded he, but not Barda who grew up heroic on friggin Apokalips) couldn't be brainwashed into porno.)

  2. #32
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    So are you basically saying any reference to the past --> nostalgia and indulgence? Morrison isn't recreating the Silver Age the way Johns essentially adapted the Donner films into comic form. What "grand shout out to the Silver Age stuff in Action" are you talking about exactly?

    The ideas and world building is there yes..but that isn't because of nostalgia. That's using a reference point to build Superman's mythos. It's also worth pointing out that a lot of these elements and mythos were outright stripped from the character, so maybe Morrison is just restoring what shouldn't have been removed.

    JMS's Superman adding absolutely nothing new to the character in contrast.

  3. #33
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    So are you basically saying any reference to the past --> nostalgia and indulgence? Morrison isn't recreating the Silver Age the way Johns essentially adapted the Donner films into comic form. What "grand shout out to the Silver Age stuff in Action" are you talking about exactly?

    The ideas and world building is there yes..but that isn't because of nostalgia. That's using a reference point to build Superman's mythos. It's also worth pointing out that a lot of these elements and mythos were outright stripped from the character, so maybe Morrison is just restoring what shouldn't have been removed.

    JMS's Superman adding absolutely nothing new to the character in contrast.
    To make something for a bunch of Kids who want everything handed to them on a silver platter instead of starting at the bottom like anyone who actually succeed in life is WRONG. Occupy Wallstreet is a Joke made up of these people and it disgust me to no end. These people are not oppressed or being held down, they are just lazy bums who think the world owes them something because they went to college. Well woop dee Friggin do, Welcome to the real world. I HATE the fact that people think this is right that the new Superman is for them now.

  4. #34
    Senior Member MFitzH2O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    So are you basically saying any reference to the past --> nostalgia and indulgence? Morrison isn't recreating the Silver Age the way Johns essentially adapted the Donner films into comic form. What "grand shout out to the Silver Age stuff in Action" are you talking about exactly?
    No-no. Not at all. That is, I don't think I am (saying what you think I am of nostalgia). Or, I'm sure I don't mean to. Many stories need to reference the past, that's how you build a larger story and create a world in which many things and multiple characters originate. What I'm saying that when a story is thrown-away (such as this last batch of old DC continuity) and you're 'starting over' it behooves one to create the new story before creating a heavily referenced story. There is nothing new, just a series of characters doing what they've one before in other reboots, revamps and retellings.

    I'm sorry I was vague on what aspects of Action came off as silver-age-y. The use of Metallo was one and I'll grant you that this was far more Geoff Johns' Metallo than the original character, but, as you've pointed, Geoff Johns' was nothing but a love-story to the Silver. There's the Legion of Superheros and their time-travelling aid to Superman which felt right out of Secret Origin, too, which felt oh-so-very Silver age. I don't have the book in front of me, so my specifics are vague, but will you please describe the line you mentioned? The obvious one between reverence and indulgence in Morrison & Johns? I see Morrison's run not as reverent but as derivative and, by nature, indulgent. Indulgent how? I dunno, it's like Morrison's sitting with the Superman Archives, taking stories, not re-writing them, and telling the world he's a genius. DC uses Warner to put it in the media, the media tow the line and people repeat it. It's great that so many people like it, I've just read the stories he ripped off and would like to see this reboot take its time to not seem like it's canibalizing volumes of Superman. Use the stories, sure, thats what 70+ years of material is good for: 35+ years of reference, story, character concept and world building.

    Morrison indulges in nostalgia of his own, his sense is just, thankfully, more broad that Johns, adds a bit more thought and complexity, but he is his sense indulging nostalgia (at least in the first volume of Action, but I'd argue he did a nostalgic-derivative run on Batman, too.) which people grab onto. His caliber of story has gone down; he's found a formula and its working for him.

    It doesn't work for me. Reboot. Start over. Not 'reboot, let's use last year as our model'

    It's also worth pointing out that a lot of these elements and mythos were outright stripped from the character, so maybe Morrison is just restoring what shouldn't have been removed.
    Nah, it's not worth pointing out because what you say 'shouldn't have been removed' was removed whether it should have been or not. Over the course of 20 years, a lot of that nonsense was built back in. Slowly, not all at once. In new ways, not in ways very similar to stories told less than 5 years prior. Like I said: Use the stories, sure, thats what 70+ years of material is good for: 35+ years of reference, story, character concept and world building. He shoved quite a bit into that first bit.

    JMS's Superman adding absolutely nothing new to the character in contrast.
    I'm not a huge fan of Earth one, so please don't misunderstand; I'm not intending to say it was 'good', rather it was the superior 'reboot'

    Was there anything new character-wise? Well, he made clark younger at his first appearance in Metropolis (Hmm...), Lois too. Jimmy was made older and more gung-ho... Clark's first appearance had to do with an attempted invasion... Krypton was destroyed in a form of inter-galactic war... Pa's dead... But I see what you mean, there's nothing new added to the depth of the characters. What I mean there is that Earth One didn't stand on previous stories, it didn't start with Brainiac, Lex Luthor, Metallo, the Legion of Superheros, Morgan Edge... it rebooted without sayuing, 'Oh this still happened, and this still happened, and this still happened!' I mean, it's reboot, we get to kill the guy all over again if we want, c'mon!

    Action (vol 1) may well be the better story between the two, but that wasn't the point I was making: Earth One was the stronger reboot.
    Last edited by MFitzH2O; 12-07-2012 at 07:23 PM.
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  5. #35
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    To make something for a bunch of Kids who want everything handed to them on a silver platter instead of starting at the bottom like anyone who actually succeed in life is WRONG. Occupy Wallstreet is a Joke made up of these people and it disgust me to no end. These people are not oppressed or being held down, they are just lazy bums who think the world owes them something because they went to college. Well woop dee Friggin do, Welcome to the real world. I HATE the fact that people think this is right that the new Superman is for them now.
    Yeah, because Woodstock, on the other hand, had nothing to do with a bunch of kids who think everything is owned to them, I presume.
    I just love when the generation who had it the easiest in the entire history of mankind, the generation who ruined the planet more than anyone else before it, the generation who lived in a full job period, in a baby boom period, the generation of hippies and beatniks, thinks it's in any position to give lessons to anyone and to criticize the first generation to live in worst conditions than its predecessors since the last two centuries, a generation who actually has to face a situation where there are more people searching a job than jobs available, the fact that natural ressources are actually limited (instead of what you morrons believed), and who basically got the short end of a stick you instaured. It's easy to say you made it on your own when unemployement was nonexistent, when you managed to got the economical boom created by WWII without having to deal with its consequences because your fathersmanaged to stop the thing while it was still in Europe. You instaured the neo capitalistic system that is the cause of all the economical problems the world has to face right now (yeah, check it out, modern neo liberalism....instaured in the 60's-70's). You put one of the worst dictatorship of the 20th century in the country of Chili only because the legally elected president was slightly socialist. You trained Al Quaida to fight the Soviets. You didn't even manage to reproduce properly, so we could be numerous enough to pay the moment you will stop working. And you still believe you are in any position to give lessons. Man, ho, man.
    I applaud this. I applaud this cowardness and complete refusal of facing your own actions. I applaud this complete lack of remorse in blaming a generation that didn't have the time to do anything yet for all the problems you created. I applaud this complete ignorance of the situation. I could go on, but I'm too busy laughting my ass off.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  6. #36
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Yeah, because Woodstock, on the other hand, had nothing to do with a bunch of kids who think everything is owned to them, I presume.
    I just love when the generation who had it the easiest in the entire history of mankind, the generation who ruined the planet more than anyone else before it, the generation who lived in a full job period, in a baby boom period, the generation of hippies and beatniks, thinks it's in any position to give lessons to anyone and to criticize the first generation to live in worst conditions than its predecessors since the last two centuries, a generation who actually has to face a situation where there are more people searching a job than jobs available, the fact that natural ressources are actually limited (instead of what you morrons believed), and who basically got the short end of a stick you instaured. It's easy to say you made it on your own when unemployement was nonexistent, when you managed to got the economical boom created by WWII without having to deal with its consequences because your fathersmanaged to stop the thing while it was still in Europe. You instaured the neo capitalistic system that is the cause of all the economical problems the world has to face right now (yeah, check it out, modern neo liberalism....instaured in the 60's-70's). You put one of the worst dictatorship of the 20th century in the country of Chili only because the legally elected president was slightly socialist. You trained Al Quaida to fight the Soviets. You didn't even manage to reproduce properly, so we could be numerous enough to pay the moment you will stop working. And you still believe you are in any position to give lessons. Man, ho, man.
    I applaud this. I applaud this cowardness and complete refusal of facing your own actions. I applaud this complete lack of remorse in blaming a generation that didn't have the time to do anything yet for all the problems you created. I applaud this complete ignorance of the situation. I could go on, but I'm too busy laughting my ass off.
    Well I have no clue what goes on in your country nor was the post pointed to you it was pointed to those who live in the USA which is were I live but anyway in reference to them it sounds a awful lot like sour grapes. I was born in 1972, We all had it rough as well growing up, no generation is any different then the next just those who think so and make excuses for themselves and others. To think the world owes you anything is a joke on you and you alone. Go work at Burger King or McDonalds if they are finding it so hard to find jobs. Hell there is a Starbucks on every corner in the world. The world owes you nothing you owe yourself.

    As for the part I underlined on your post every generation says the same thing about the one before it, it's not about what they did but what you do in your life. Just saying, don't blame ones shortcomings on those who came before because it's just petty and there is no one to blame but yourself.
    Last edited by Lexrules; 12-06-2012 at 07:59 AM.

  7. #37
    Senior Member MFitzH2O's Avatar
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    Why are we talking about OW? Is it because this Clark was made for this generation? Let's talk about that and get into fights over our favorite form of fiction, let's leave politics to private messaging and talk about Superman; bring it back around.
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  8. #38
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFitzH2O View Post
    Why are we talking about OW? Is it because this Clark was made for this generation? Let's talk about that and get into fights over our favorite form of fiction, let's leave politics to private messaging and talk about Superman; bring it back around.
    Well unfortunately our world apparently has way to much to do with the direction Superman is written. Always has been for the most part so a discussion like this is vital I think. You want to say this Superman is for the poor and underclass that's fine but DON'T say it's for Occupy Wallstreet because that is doing a great disservice for those who really this Superman is for and if Morrison did make it for these OW people then he is a fool in every sense of the word.

  9. #39
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    Sounds a awful lot like sour grapes. I was born in 1972, We all had it rough as well growing up, no generation is any different then the next just those who think so and make excuses for themselves and others. To think the world owes you anything is a joke on you and you alone. Go work at Burger King or McDonalds if they are finding it so hard to find jobs. Hell there is a Starbucks on every corner in the world. The world owes you nothing you owe yourself.
    I don't really hear much young people pretending the world own them anything. I do hear however a huge number of old nostalgic asstwits who think young people own them everything for.....I don't know, having screwed it up? Being the first generation to have made the general level of life worse than when they arrived? How about you try getting your informations somewhere else than Foxnews? Just so you can hear that there is a thing called "worst Economical Crisis since 1929" (you know, the Great Depression, former billionaires jumping off rooftops, all that) going on at the moment, that the "Occupy Wall Street" movement is not composed exclusively of young people (making your rant against them pointless), and that many of them actually had work before the economical crisis made them lose it and put them on the street.
    And for your information while I am still in college, I do have a part time job as a local correspondant for a newspaper, so I don't think I'm living on anyone's back (well, my parents had to pay the caution, but is it my fault if nowadays owners refuse to loan anything to 20ish if the parents don't deal with the caution?) .
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  10. #40
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I don't really hear much young people pretending the world own them anything. I do hear however a huge number of old nostalgic asstwits who think young people own them everything for.....I don't know, having screwed it up? Being the first generation to have made the general level of life worse than when they arrived? How about you try getting your informations somewhere else than Foxnews? Just so you can hear that there is a thing called "worst Economical Crisis since 1929" (you know, the Great Depression, former billionaires jumping off rooftops, all that) going on at the moment, that the "Occupy Wall Street" movement is not composed exclusively of young people (making your rant against them pointless), and that many of them actually had work before the economical crisis made them lose it and put them on the street.
    And for your information while I am still in college, I do have a part time job as a local correspondant for a newspaper, so I don't think I'm living on anyone's back (well, my parents had to pay the caution, but is it my fault if nowadays owners refuse to loan anything to 20ish if the parents don't deal with the caution?) .
    Well that's good, I commend you for doing things on your own but I know plenty of 20 somethings who are lazy as could be and think the world owes them everything because they went to college and can't find a job now because they won't start for any less then a high paying job and are a part of Occupy Wallstreet. The bottom line is the world owes you NOTHING, the governments owe you NOTHING, you owe yourself and you are no different then anyone else who came before you and will come after you. You simply do what you have to do in life to live and if that means working at Burger King then that is what you have to do. As for the older people who are a part of OW I feel for them but the same line goes to them as well, The World owes you nothing. You do what you have to do. Sure life is unfair and cruel but that is life it's those who rise above it that make the most out of life's shortcomings.
    Last edited by Lexrules; 12-06-2012 at 08:31 AM.

  11. #41
    Senior Member MFitzH2O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    [O]ur world apparently has way to much to do with the direction Superman is written.
    That's a very, very important point: Superman's declining sales over the years (events aside) would likely agree with you.

    Always has been for the most part so a discussion like this is vital I think. You want to say this Superman is for the poor and underclass that's fine but DON'T say it's for Occupy Wallstreet because that is doing a great disservice for those who really this Superman is for and if Morrison did make it for these OW people then he is a fool in every sense of the word.
    Superman is for the poor and downtrodden. For the heroic at heart and for those who love Ma, Pa, and, yeah, apple pie.

    There. I said it. My 2c. Not for trends, not for today, but for an ideal. Humility alongside strength, truth and justice.

    I just don't feel this Superman 'modernizing' nor is it revitalizing; it's catering to trends and, worse, to fads. Most stories are. This, too, shall pass.
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  12. #42
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFitzH2O View Post
    That's a very, very important point: Superman's declining sales over the years (events aside) would likely agree with you.



    Superman is for the poor and downtrodden. For the heroic at heart and for those who love Ma, Pa, and, yeah, apple pie.

    There. I said it. My 2c. Not for trends, not for today, but for an ideal. Humility alongside strength, truth and justice.

    I just don't feel this Superman 'modernizing' nor is it revitalizing; it's catering to trends and, worse, to fads. Most stories are. This, too, shall pass.
    I agree with you 100%. That is what Superman has always meant to me as well. Truth, Justice, and yes The American Way because it still does live on no matter what any politically correct moron want's to tell you other wise.

  13. #43
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    Well that's good, I commend you for doing things on your own but I know plenty of 20 somethings who are lazy as could be and think the world owes them everything because they went to college and can't find a job now because they won't start for any less then a high paying job and are a part of Occupy Wallstreet. The bottom line is the world owes you NOTHING, the governments owe you NOTHING, you owe yourself and you are no different then anyone else who came before you and will come after you. You simply do what you have to do in life to live and if that means working at Burger King then that is what you have to do. As for the older people who are a part of OW I feel for them but the same line goes to them as well, The World owes you nothing. You do what you have to do.
    Yeah, go tell that to the guy who lost his house because some people in banks used the money of his hard work on actions that crashed, all of this without his knwoledge of course, only to tell him "yeah, your bank account? Sorry, man, we can't give your money back". Ask him if he feels like it's fair play and if the world owes him nothing. The world, I don't know, but in a fair world, the bank certainly does, and it's called the money the guy obtained by his hard work. That's what "Occupy Wall Street" is about.
    I'm sorry, but you act as if Burger King was willing to hire 20ish people out of college, when they can have teenagers from high school from much less. Not to mention that, yeah, I can see why serving burgers can be slightly disapointing when you wasted 7 years of your life graduating in economics because your parents insisted that you should have a "proper job" (because yeah, when you put into kids' mind that selling burgers is disgraceful, somehow they remember it).
    Besides, I know a few 20ish people, some of them have a "proper job", others work in garage and stuff like that until they graduate, and the few I know who don't work never complained that anybody should owe them anything. Hell, my own brother has a degree in ingeniery, but decided to work in construction because he liked it better. So spare me your cliches.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  14. #44
    Senior Member MFitzH2O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    I agree with you 100%. That is what Superman has always meant to me as well. Truth, Justice, and yes The American Way because it still does live on no matter what any politically correct moron want's to tell you other wise.
    I'll go with 'Truth and Justice' because I think it transcends nationality. (It took me a while, but enough Fleischer cartoons and it even sounded correct! It was missing some meter, though...)
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  15. #45
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFitzH2O View Post
    I'll go with 'Truth and Justice' because I think it transcends nationality. (It took me a while, but enough Fleischer cartoons and it even sounded correct! It was missing some meter, though...)
    Fair Enough. I know some have a problem with The American Way but I always loved it because it does stand for good things at least for what our fore fathers intended it to mean.
    Last edited by Lexrules; 12-06-2012 at 09:06 AM.

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