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  1. #31
    S.P.E.C.T.R.E. destro's Avatar
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    I would argue that Batman takes up a lot of the attention of the villains, thus sparing normal citizens from being even further victimized by them.

    Joker for example spends a good chunk of his time specifically plotting against Batman. Without Batman he would probably be out there killing even more people and causing more mayhem. Batman takes up a good deal of his villains time and focus.
    Life looks better in black and white.

  2. #32
    Junior Member dregj's Avatar
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    one of the few things they got right in the last two nolan movies was things actually do get better less corruption, more hope etc(aside from super villain attacks and son on)

  3. #33
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dregj View Post
    one of the few things they got right in the last two nolan movies was things actually do get better less corruption, more hope etc(aside from super villain attacks and son on)
    Yeah, exactly. Once Batman shows, people feel like they have a legitimate shot at a decent life. Sure, there's the off chance that they'll get killed in one of the Joker's rampages, but it's about on level with the likelihood of dying in a terrorist attack. And while that's scary, it's not as soul-crushing as knowing that your city is rotten to its very core.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  4. #34
    Junior Member Lazyking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CjP View Post
    Someone fails when they don't reach their goal, and I don't think Bruce's 'goal' for Batman has ever been clearly defined. All I've ever seen are vague statements like 'avenge my parents' or 'rid the city of crime' or 'fight evil'... nothing to where he can stop and say 'OK, I did what I set out to do. I'm done.'

    More or less, it seems like his goal is to simply fight the good fight. In that respect, the only way he can fail is to simply stop fighting.
    This. Batman like most superheroes knows what he's doing is what very few can or have the desire to do. He takes on people that normal people can't. With his wealth and skills, he can do that AND train others to do it so that hopefully one day when he retires or dies, there will be somebody protecting the city.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkNut View Post
    Most criminals were behind bar and Gotham was safer than ever. I doubt that counts as a fail.
    Did you miss the ending? Whatever safety and peace Bruce brought only came because Bruce took the wrap for Harvey's crimes. So ultimately it wasn't real peace at all. See The Dark Knight Rises for more on this.
    "John Stewart. LAME! ...this guy having a ring is like giving the batmobile to a blind old woman with her left leg in a cast."

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choppa View Post
    Did you miss the ending? Whatever safety and peace Bruce brought only came because Bruce took the wrap for Harvey's crimes. So ultimately it wasn't real peace at all. See The Dark Knight Rises for more on this.
    While there is a distinction between real peace and illusory peace in a philosophical and moral sense, in the real-world pragmatic sense...peace is peace. Regardless of what Harvey Dent may have done and how it was covered up, the fact remains that Gotham's Mob bosses were behind bars and organized crime was virtually eradicated. People's lives DID dramatically improve.

    And I still maintain that while the truth behind Harvey Dent's eventual psychotic breakdown WAS concealed, Harvey Dent WAS a true symbol of hope for Gotham. Had Rachel not died, Harvey WOULD have successfully cleaned up Gotham's streets and through him, Batman would have accomplished his mission anyway. I say Batman, because the only reason someone like Harvey had a chance of cleaning up the system from the inside is because Batman spent a year taking down the Mob and giving the justice system a shot in the arm. Gordon even says as much at the end of TDK that Batman is the one who gave him and Dent the chance of fixing their city.

  7. #37
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choppa View Post
    Did you miss the ending? Whatever safety and peace Bruce brought only came because Bruce took the wrap for Harvey's crimes. So ultimately it wasn't real peace at all. See The Dark Knight Rises for more on this.
    I dunno...all the people who weren't killed by violent crime in the intervening years were still not dead.
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  8. #38
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post
    I dunno...all the people who weren't killed by violent crime in the intervening years were still not dead.
    And then you factor it not just the ones who weren't killed, but the ones who weren't crushed by it.

    Before Batman shows up, no one feels like standing up to crime. You can't trust the politicians, the cops, or your neighbor. That's a pretty miserable way to live.

    Batman's presence gets Gordon, arguably the only honest cop in Gotham at the time, into power. And things just get better from there.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  9. #39
    Harley Licks Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post
    I dunno...all the people who weren't killed by violent crime in the intervening years were still not dead.
    So they got a couple years respite
    The point is Batman didn't make a difference because he had to lie to actually change Gotham on some level he became what he fought against. Gordon was still going to reveal the truth and all the criminals were going to appeal their sentences.
    There's hope that Batman left the city in a better place through his heroic actions and charity as Bruce Wayne but overall not much changed.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    So they got a couple years respite
    The point is Batman didn't make a difference because he had to lie to actually change Gotham on some level he became what he fought against. Gordon was still going to reveal the truth and all the criminals were going to appeal their sentences.
    There's hope that Batman left the city in a better place through his heroic actions and charity as Bruce Wayne but overall not much changed.
    That's certainly true to some extent. But broadly, the way I see it, Batman had to lie about Harvey Dent's fate...but everything that was said about the man before he became Two Face was true. He was a 'White Knight' and had it not been for the Joker, he would likely have cleaned up the city himself.

    Look at Batman's original plan in Begins, the one he outlined to Alfred when he was flying home to Gotham. He planned to create a symbol that would inspire people to stand up against injustice-a symbol of hope. By the time of TDK, about a year or so later, we see that the symbol of Batman has had some concrete positive impact on the city. Criminals are running scared...instead of running the city they are now running scared. Honest cops like Gordon are now free to act in ways they never were before. People no longer had to live in perpetual fear of the Mob...they felt free to take control of their destiny for the first time in decades. That's where Harvey Dent comes in. It was only in this positive atmosphere created by the Batman's actions that Harvey was able to come to the forefront and begin his campaign against organized crime in earnest. Harvey cleaning up the city was the culmination of Bruce's plan all along-to inspire ordinary people to stand up against injustice and restore faith in law and order. The only problem was that Harvey ultimately ended up being corrupted by the Joker...and this necessitated Batman and Gordon having to lie to turn Harvey into a martyr and thus put the plan 'back on track'. But in a twisted way, Bruce's original plan ultimately succeeded.

  11. #41
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    So they got a couple years respite
    The point is Batman didn't make a difference because he had to lie to actually change Gotham on some level he became what he fought against. Gordon was still going to reveal the truth and all the criminals were going to appeal their sentences.
    There's hope that Batman left the city in a better place through his heroic actions and charity as Bruce Wayne but overall not much changed.
    8 is more than a couple, and saying the countless people that don't die in that time isn't "making a difference" because he had to lie is silly. I'm generally far from an "ends justify the means" guy, but jeez...
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  12. #42
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
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    I was going to suggest a thread just like this, akin to the Wolvie one in the X-boards http://forums.comicbookresources.com...g-PWN-d-images

    Then I realized Batman never gets pwned and never fails at anything. Unless he's written by Geoff Johns. Then his only "failure" is being like the #3 or #4 smartest man/best detective.
    Comics were happier before the Internet turned writing superhero stories into fruitless attempts to impress/entertain a small group of ppl who appear to hate comics and their creators.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member stewart48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cheesesteak View Post
    I was going to suggest a thread just like this, akin to the Wolvie one in the X-boards http://forums.comicbookresources.com...g-PWN-d-images

    Then I realized Batman never gets pwned and never fails at anything. Unless he's written by Geoff Johns. Then his only "failure" is being like the #3 or #4 smartest man/best detective.
    Death and the Maidens you could argue was a Batman failure. Talia ends up brainwashed and hating him at the end and goes uber evil.
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  14. #44
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewart48 View Post
    Death and the Maidens you could argue was a Batman failure.
    I'd argue it was a DC failure. Although the art was beautiful.

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