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  1. #16
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    The trouble is that there's honestly very little to distinguish a potential Tim/Red Robin series from, say, Nightwing.
    I completely disagree. They're two entirely different people.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member godisawesome's Avatar
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    I just got done re-reading my digital copy of Teen Titans #0, and I have to say that Nu-Tim really does come off as a bit of a prick and idiot. And I never realized how much I enjoyed reading Jack Drake in the old solo until I read this new character.

    Would you guys consider an overhaul on the origin essential to a solo or just a nice consolation prize if it happens? And what would you do if Lobdell or Defalco got the writing reigns?

    'Cause I honestly think I would be more perturbed about an unaltered Red Robin series written by these guys. Lobdell just seemed too enthusiatic about throwing the baby out with the bathwater for Tim's new origin, while he barely touched Jason Todd's life. Tim comes off too much as Dick Grayson circa 1970 but without the classic charisma.
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  3. #18
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post

    Lobdell just seemed too enthusiatic about throwing the baby out with the bathwater for Tim's new origin, while he barely touched Jason Todd's life.
    I disagree with you there. Quite a bit of Jason's history was removed. Jason's real mother pre-reboot was not Catherine Todd but Sheila Haywood who abandoned him once he was born. Now he has a somewhat more stable home life then before. Willis Todd was around for quite a bit of Jason's upbringing where before he wasn't. The circumstances of Willis's death are also different. Jason met Batman because he stole the tires from the Batmobile in the past but now it's because he stole drugs from the clinic. Jason's resurrection didn't happen in exactly the same way from what I can tell, nor did Under the Hood. Also Jason was trained by the monks of the All Caste and not by random teachers as was shown in Lost Days. And the final kicker, if there is any grain of truth to Joker's claims, is that Joker may have had a hand in creating Jason as the second Robin.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 12-03-2012 at 04:11 PM.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I just got done re-reading my digital copy of Teen Titans #0, and I have to say that Nu-Tim really does come off as a bit of a prick and idiot. a.
    That's how I feel about Nicieza's Tim.

  5. #20
    Junior Member Bat_Fan2232's Avatar
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    I love Tim. My favorite DC character. But after the latest teen titans i think he's done in death of the fam.
    Pull List: Aquaman, Death of the Family, Ultimate Comics Spider Man, Uncanny Avengers, Secret Service, Locke and Key & I, Vampire

  6. #21
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    . . . Lobdell just seemed too enthusiatic about throwing the baby out with the bathwater for Tim's new origin, while he barely touched Jason Todd's life. Tim comes off too much as Dick Grayson circa 1970 but without the classic charisma.
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I disagree with you there. Quite a bit of Jason's history was removed. Jason's real mother pre-reboot was not Catherine Todd but Sheila Haywood who abandoned him once he was born. Now he has a somewhat more stable home life then before. Willis Todd was around for quite a bit of Jason's upbringing where before he wasn't. The circumstances of Willis's death are also different. Jason met Batman because he stole the tires from the Batmobile in the past but now it's because he stole drugs from the clinic. Jason's resurrection didn't happen in exactly the same way from what I can tell, nor did Under the Hood. Also Jason was trained by the monks of the All Caste and not by random teachers as was shown in Lost Days. And the final kicker, if there is any grain of truth to Joker's claims, is that Joker may have had a hand in creating Jason as the second Robin.
    Rewriting Jason's origin is nothing new for DC. They've done it how many times now?

    (Before CoIE, Jason was Dick-lite who also came from a circus background. His parents were killed by Killer Croc because they were investigating something for Dick, who was still Robin at the time.)
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  7. #22
    Junior Member Bat_Fan2232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    That's how I feel about Nicieza's Tim.
    I get this. But sadly for Mr. Nicieza's he was stuck writing Red Robin in a forced direction. R.I.P. and all that. The second story arc for me was so much better than the first. I loved Red Robin.
    Pull List: Aquaman, Death of the Family, Ultimate Comics Spider Man, Uncanny Avengers, Secret Service, Locke and Key & I, Vampire

  8. #23
    Senior Member godisawesome's Avatar
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    And at least there was some previous lead-up to Tim acting that way, what with all the testing Batman kept making him do and his status as a veteran crimefighter by that point.
    “There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal."

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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    That's how I feel about Nicieza's Tim.
    Lobdell's Tim is much less of a prick than Nicieza's.

  10. #25
    Senior Member godisawesome's Avatar
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    But also more of a fool.

    Nicieza's Tim, with his well established record of crime fighting and almost hilariously brutal editorially mandates traumatization, had at least earned some pride of place in the Batman family and some justified confidence in himself. His issue was his growing arrogance and disconnect from everyday life; which some of us Tim Drake fans liked, at least on my part because it made it seem both bittersweet whenever he reflected on it and because it seemed like the type of attitude you'd expect from a young adult just truly coming in to his own and not quite being mature enough for it, and some of us hated, I believe because it was felt that Tim had worked infinitely better as the more down-to-earth Robin with a family and real high school issues, which let's face it, young emancipated businessman with no real family who also prefers to set up all his opponents so they help him take them all out like dominoes doesn't real fit that description.

    Now, Lobdell's Tim is only really a prick in Teen Titans #0, but this is our very first single issue focused entirely on Tim, and generally Tim never really had his flaws exposed when with a group. But Tim here is apparently smart enough to be an expert hacker but dumb enough he can't recognize a completely faked human being, skilled enough to steal millions of dollars from the Penguin but clumsy enough that Penguin's men can track him down in a few minutes, caring enough about his parents that he wants to make them proud and pushes himself to excel but also doesn't seem all that perturbed at the idea of exiling them to witness protection while he gets to live the high-life with a billionaire.

    Admittedly, that last one is more the result of really bad story conception than characterization decisions.

    And part of the appeal of old Tim was that he was a reluctant hero who felt duty-bound to try and help people. This Tim apparently is a Well Done Son Guy who can't just take some pride in being the maxed out golden boy he now appears as and goes out of his way to pester Batman into making him a sidekick. Which I just realized is basically the same origin as Syndrome from the Incredibles. Except that Batman here gives Tim exactly what he wants. And even though Tim was apparently supposed to name himself Red Robin out of respect for Jason Todd's sacrifice, it comes off as Tim off-handedly discarding that rubbish for his own identity-which is still the same costume, look and half of his codename. So instead of coming off as a respectful, humble, and reluctant hero, Tim seems like a grasping plagiarist.

    Nicieza's Tim read to me like a bitter and grown version of Dixon's Tim, and I actually loved that kind of reflective sorrow on how much his life had changed. And I still think that the end of Red Robin #25 makes a good lead-in to Tim's appearance in Teen Titans #1 because that Tim, dealing with a bit of an inner-darkness and showing a little earned arrogance would leave Bruce to go off on his own.
    “There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal."

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  11. #26
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Rewriting Jason's origin is nothing new for DC. They've done it how many times now?

    (Before CoIE, Jason was Dick-lite who also came from a circus background. His parents were killed by Killer Croc because they were investigating something for Dick, who was still Robin at the time.)
    Yeah, CoIE changed his history drastically and I, for one, welcomed that change. I never cared for the Dick-lite version of Jason myself because that had already been done. I was happy to see him with an origin that wasn't a copy of Dick's and I was also glad that he was a different type of Robin from Dick. Likewise, I'm fine with the changes to his origin here minus Joker's possible involvement in him becoming Robin. Assuming Joker didn't just make that whole story up I don't see the need to for that particular addition to Jason's origin even if Joker is the reason Jason became the Red Hood.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  12. #27
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    But Tim here is apparently smart enough to be an expert hacker but dumb enough he can't recognize a completely faked human being
    Are you completely forgetting that the faked human being was created by Batman, himself? Are you suggesting that Tim should be able to somehow see through a elaborate scheme set up by the world's greatest detective or that Batman himself would have been less then meticulous when setting it all up? I was not surprised in the least that he didn't realise that the man was a fake. Tim may be smart and have had a natural apptitude with regard to detective work at that point but he is still an amature compared to Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    skilled enough to steal millions of dollars from the Penguin but clumsy enough that Penguin's men can track him down in a few minutes
    Tim is a kid though and not an expert on anything. Just because he is skilled at hacking it doesn't necessarily follow that he is perfect at it or that he wouldn't have made a mistake somewhere. Also I would not put it past Penguin to have something in place that would allow him to track his money and to alert him when someone was making an unauthorized withdrawal. He is a criminal kingpin after all so I'm positive that he keeps a close eye on his money. At the very least he would have been notified by someone about the sudden disappearence of millions from his account and would have likely had someone in his employ that could trace it back to whomever stole it. Batman was able to do so himself and I don't think it's a stretch to think that Penguin might have someone who could do so as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    caring enough about his parents that he wants to make them proud and pushes himself to excel but also doesn't seem all that perturbed at the idea of exiling them to witness protection while he gets to live the high-life with a billionaire.
    I believe that he was very upset with the idea that he had to remain way from his parents and that they were going to be leaving for parts unknown without him. They were the center of his life and are very important to him still. I also don't believe he thought that his going to "live the high-life" with Bruce was some kind of reward for what he'd done as you appear to be implying.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  13. #28
    Senior Member godisawesome's Avatar
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    Thank you for responding with well thought out and logical arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Are you completely forgetting that the faked human being was created by Batman, himself? Are you suggesting that Tim should be able to somehow see through a elaborate scheme set up by the world's greatest detective or that Batman himself would have been less then meticulous when setting it all up? I was not surprised in the least that he didn't realise that the man was a fake. Tim may be smart and have had a natural apptitude with regard to detective work at that point but he is still an amature compared to Batman.
    No, I am not forgetting that the identity was created by Batman. And the previous series established that Tim Drake was confident enough in his own forgery skills to create a false uncle for a time, one that was good enough to fool Batman. And I won't deny that if anyone could make a convincing fake trail, it would be the Bat. But having Tim be so utterly taken in by the trap without at least displaying some skill at recognizing a craftsman does annoy me, and seems like a counter-intuitive update of the Robin who discovered Batman's identity. And considering that Tim's original conception was that he was a skilled enough amateur detective to figure out who Batman was unassisted and who only became a competent combatant later, this serves to take away some of Tim's most distinguishing characteristics. It's not that the idea doesn't have merit, it's that it's a demotion of Tim's mental skills accompanied by a redundant promotion of his physical skills. I could kind of believe this story point, but I'll go into why I still think it's conceptually weak later.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Tim is a kid though and not an expert on anything. Just because he is skilled at hacking it doesn't necessarily follow that he is perfect at it or that he wouldn't have made a mistake somewhere. Also I would not put it past Penguin to have something in place that would allow him to track his money and to alert him when someone was making an unauthorized withdrawal. He is a criminal kingpin after all so I'm positive that he keeps a close eye on his money. At the very least he would have been notified by someone about the sudden disappearence of millions from his account and would have likely had someone in his employ that could trace it back to whomever stole it. Batman was able to do so himself and I don't think it's a stretch to think that Penguin might have someone who could do so as well.
    Yes, Tim has been de-aged once more. However, we have been informed that this Tim Drake is the new "tech-guy" for the Bat-family, but he's so clumsy and inefficient at covering his own tracks in cyberspace that it's now a perennial problem of his; he was basically trolled by Bruce when he was on his trail, the Penguin knew where his family was within minutes of his robbery, and N.O.W.H.E.R.E. tracked him down in TT#1 despite having had access to Batman's resources and training. Also, the idea that he just emptied the Penguin's bank account immediately demonstrates a lack of subtlety and cunning that was one of Tim's old hallmarks, where he was arguably just as light on his feet as Bruce was and knew not to draw attention to himself because it might hurt his family. That was a huge part of the tension of keeping his father alive for so long; the ever-present threat of discovery that encouraged Tim to take the smarter path even though he was already the "smart Robin."

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I believe that he was very upset with the idea that he had to remain way from his parents and that they were going to be leaving for parts unknown without him. They were the center of his life and are very important to him still. I also don't believe he thought that his going to "live the high-life" with Bruce was some kind of reward for what he'd done as you appear to be implying.
    The "high life" comment was me trying to get enough of a rise out of someone to not feel personally insulted but compelled to comment. Also it was fun.

    Again, this ties into the fact we got one abbreviated issue to cover an origin that was about 24(him actually graduating into a combat ready Robin) to 130(loosing his last parents and moving onto Red Robin) issues worth of character development and growth in the old continuity. The "witness protection" angle makes no sense as originally presented because presumably Penguin knows some snot-nosed kid drained his bank accounts, he knows the family survived, and yet the actual target of the attack gets to live a fairly high profile life in the same city as his enemy, or alternatively if the implication was supposed to be that Tim Drake didn't have a public life during that time, that Batman could effectively shelter and train a golden boy into an apprentice but can't find some way to hide two grown adults who show more common sense than their son.

    And thanks to the abbreviated nature of a single comic, Tim goes from sadly hugging his parents to laughingly scoping out the Bat cave and insisting that he have a new identity without displaying any kind of respect for the previous Robin, which was actually a major part of his initial characterization-he knew that Jason had died in the line of duty and explicitly stated he would honor Todd's legacy. Hopefully, we get some dialogue to that effect in the upcoming crossover.

    And I still hold that this DCnU Drake is conceptually weaker than Tim was at any point of either Dixon's run on his first series or Nicieza's run on both it and Red Robin. Tim was a uniquely brainy Robin who spent whole story-arcs slowly building his physical skills up to the point where he could survive a fistfight with an adult; now he was apparently a would be Olympian in a non-existent gymnastic sport who has all the grace of a brick when tearing through the internet with his "LEET" hacking skills. Tim was rightfully humble and reluctant to take up the mask and displayed maturity beyond his years and common sense about the vigilante lifestyle; now he recklessly pursues it at the cost of losing his family through his foolishness and pretty much jumps into the role with a smile on his face. Tim is now Dick Grayson-lite with a nonsensical origin story that, of the Robins, departs the most radically from his original version. And that's including the Joker retcon I hope gets extinguished from Jason Todd's origin.
    “There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal."

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  14. #29
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    I think he's more likely to die in the pages of Batman shortly than get his own title. But, who knows, what am I, a mind reader?

  15. #30
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    I'm going to have to answer you in two parts since the forum won't let me post it all as one post. Sorry for the length of the post and for waiting so long to reply. Real life and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Thank you for responding with well thought out and logical arguments.
    You're very welcome and the same to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    No, I am not forgetting that the identity was created by Batman. And the previous series established that Tim Drake was confident enough in his own forgery skills to create a false uncle for a time, one that was good enough to fool Batman. And I won't deny that if anyone could make a convincing fake trail, it would be the Bat. But having Tim be so utterly taken in by the trap without at least displaying some skill at recognizing a craftsman does annoy me, and seems like a counter-intuitive update of the Robin who discovered Batman's identity. And considering that Tim's original conception was that he was a skilled enough amateur detective to figure out who Batman was unassisted and who only became a competent combatant later, this serves to take away some of Tim's most distinguishing characteristics. It's not that the idea doesn't have merit, it's that it's a demotion of Tim's mental skills accompanied by a redundant promotion of his physical skills. I could kind of believe this story point, but I'll go into why I still think it's conceptually weak later.
    Tim did not deduce Batman's identity without help though. He deduced it only because he recognized the Quad that "Robin" performed to capture the Penguin as being one he had seen Dick Grayson perform years before and he was aware that there were only three people in the world capable of doing one, two of which were dead. (I always have had an issue with Tim being able to even remember that if he was as young as he was when he first saw the quad.) Basically, Dick gave them both away with that signature move, which gave Tim somewhere to start his search. Here he had no such starting point to use as something to begin from and certainly not one that would have pointed directly at either Bruce Wayne or Dick Grayson as being the Dynamic Duo. The circumstances of the two were quite different and I don't see that as being a demotion of Tim's mental skills at all because of that. He showed plenty of skill in his attempt to discover Batman's identity even if the trail he was following was a false one laid out by Batman. Tim did, after all, find out both the identity of the fake and the location of his supposed headquarters.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Yes, Tim has been de-aged once more. However, we have been informed that this Tim Drake is the new "tech-guy" for the Bat-family, but he's so clumsy and inefficient at covering his own tracks in cyberspace that it's now a perennial problem of his; he was basically trolled by Bruce when he was on his trail, the Penguin knew where his family was within minutes of his robbery, and N.O.W.H.E.R.E. tracked him down in TT#1 despite having had access to Batman's resources and training. Also, the idea that he just emptied the Penguin's bank account immediately demonstrates a lack of subtlety and cunning that was one of Tim's old hallmarks, where he was arguably just as light on his feet as Bruce was and knew not to draw attention to himself because it might hurt his family. That was a huge part of the tension of keeping his father alive for so long; the ever-present threat of discovery that encouraged Tim to take the smarter path even though he was already the "smart Robin."
    1. Bruce's trolling of Tim only started happening after their confrontation at the Gotham Aviary and not before that point unless you want to count the false trail Batman planted as being him "trolling" Tim. I simply found it it be Batman testing Tim to see if he was really as good as Alfred had kept saying he was. Clearly Batman knew about Tim's obsession with finding out his ID before he'd even met the kid.

    2. The Penguin would surely be very aware of things regarding his money, as I said before, and he probably has people on his payroll that are possibly better then Tim at hacking and so forth. I don't find it so surprising myself given that Tim at that point is not an expert at hacking. I would have far more trouble believing that he was able to hack into anywhere, especially something like the Penguin's accounts, and not leave any sign that he was there at this particular point in time. I do agree that it was stupid of him to have stolen all the money in those accounts but then again he is an amature going up against a savy criminal kingpin and there is also the fact that he did this to gain Batman's attention on top of that. In his mind he was probably thinking "the bigger the better" but unfortunately for him it backfired drastically.

    3. N.O.W.H.E.R.E. finding him in TT 1 was likely intentional as a part of Tim's trap to draw them out and to tell them that he was onto their scheme. I know he said he thought he would be "to small-fry" for them to notice but by this point Tim has been trained by Batman and I doubt very seriously that he would have made a mistake that would lead to his capture unless he was looking to draw them out in some way. In fact, I could see that being the case for each of the other times as well. There does seem to be a pattern of him leaving just enough information that draws out the people he wants to confront. On the surface it looks like he's making dumb mistakes but is he really? I don't think so myself.

    4. The tension involved in protecting his family is still present now. He still has to work with the in mind even if the circumstances have been changed and he knows that. It's why he won't tell the Titans his name.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 12-05-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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