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  1. #151
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Morrison chose to focus most of his attention on emotional beats in Mrs. Nyxly's life.
    Fair enough that such wasn't what you wanted, but it has worked for many of us. And, really, she is someone important to Superman, and to his current situation, and she's right there in front of him, telling him what he needs to know. Even her life, significantly, is a Superman story. Look how Superman has affected and shaped her life, both as a 5th dimensional princess whose father was brought out of doldrums by Mxy's games with Superman (and others), how Superman inadvertently struck the hand of her betrayer, and there he is, standing beside her as she's shot. She's a woman who saved Superman, a woman who's known of him, and what he can be, longer than even he, himself, has lived.

    So, yes, the comic does provide us new things happening to Superman, and show us things about Superman, and even when she's telling him her story, her story revolves significantly around Supes.

    No one has to enjoy that, but it's still there.

  2. #152
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    Fair enough that such wasn't what you wanted, but it has worked for many of us. And, really, she is someone important to Superman, and to his current situation, and she's right there in front of him, telling him what he needs to know. Even her life, significantly, is a Superman story. Look how Superman has affected and shaped her life, both as a 5th dimensional princess whose father was brought out of doldrums by Mxy's games with Superman (and others), how Superman inadvertently struck the hand of her betrayer, and there he is, standing beside her as she's shot. She's a woman who saved Superman, a woman who's known of him, and what he can be, longer than even he, himself, has lived.

    So, yes, the comic does provide us new things happening to Superman, and show us things about Superman, and even when she's telling him her story, her story revolves significantly around Supes.

    No one has to enjoy that, but it's still there.
    I didn't say the Mrs. Nyxly aspects of the story were not well-done or were useless, did I? I said they could have been included just as they are with a more balanced focus on some of the key emotional beats in Superman's life. I also have no idea why you felt the need to defend your opinion by somehow suggesting that I've said it shouldn't have worked for other people or that the people who enjoyed it are wrong to have done so. Look, there were elements of Superman's life that were short-changed in this issue in favor of showcasing Mrs. Nyxly. Why aren't we encouraged to feel the loss of Clark's mother, Martha, just as much as we are encouraged to feel for Mrs. Nyxly? Martha is "someone important to Superman" as well is she not? Why couldn't more have been done to juxtapose those two stories to make them sing the same song? I believe this issue could have been a much more powerful that way. In other words, I am lamenting the loss of what could have been rather than tearing apart what was. The issue itself, as a whole, was well-done and I enjoyed it for the most part. Yet, I believe it could have been so much more.
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-06-2012 at 11:00 AM.

  3. #153
    Veteran Member The Beast Of Yucca Flats's Avatar
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    My subtext-fu is weak.

  4. #154
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I didn't say the Mrs. Nyxly aspects of the story were not well-done or were useless, did I? I said they could have been included just as they are with a more balanced focus on some of the key emotional beats in Superman's life. I also have no idea why you felt the need to defend your opinion by somehow suggesting that I've said it shouldn't have worked for other people or that the people who enjoyed it are wrong to have done so. Look, there were elements of Superman's life that were short-changed in this issue in favor of showcasing Mrs. Nyxly. Why aren't we encouraged to feel the loss of Clark's mother, Martha, just as much as we are encouraged to feel for Mrs. Nyxly? Martha is "someone important to Superman" as well is she not? Why couldn't more have been done to juxtapose those two stories to make them sing the same song? I believe this issue could have been a much more powerful that way. In other words, I am lamenting the loss of what could have been rather than tearing apart what was. The issue itself, as a whole, was well-done and I enjoyed it for the most part. Yet, I believe it could have been so much more.
    We've already had the death of his parents dealt with heavily in this run. And it was pretty sad, here, for me, in any case. We've had those beats gone over already.

    Her story took more space this time because it's the first time we've really had it as a complete story.

    And, I thought they were, Clark/Supes' life and hers, pretty well in sympathetic vibration and occasional counterpoint here.

    Why was it this and not something else? I don't know, other than because that's how the talent thought it'd best be told. If you didn't actively dislike it, or you're not actively bored by it, how important is Why isn't this better than good? much of a concern? I mentioned that it did work for many of us, because that's what a story's meant to do, in the end, work for an audience. I never claimed you said people who enjoyed it were wrong. You clearly don't like where attention went in this story, even though you say you enjoyed the story well enough. That it worked for myself and others is worth mentioning simply to illustrate that it has that fundamental value; the story worked (for some of us). Why is the story shaped as it is? Perhaps, simply, to reach the audience it did and make the points that it did. If it reached a different audience, was shaped to make other points, or highlight alternate points, it'd be a different comic. (And if it was unsuccessful, I could see desiring it be a different comic, but it was not, for the apparent majority of readers, unsuccessful.)

  5. #155
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    We've already had the death of his parents dealt with heavily in this run. And it was pretty sad, here, for me, in any case. We've had those beats gone over already.
    We saw Jonathan Kent in his death bed and Clark walking through his empty house in Smallville before leaving it behind. Both stories were brief and barely scratched the surface. Morrison's work in All Star Superman is how you deal with the death of Clark's parents. So I don't know how you define "heavily," but this run hasn't reached that bar for me.

    Her story took more space this time because it's the first time we've really had it as a complete story.
    I didn't have a problem with the amount of space her story comprised.

    And, I thought they were, Clark/Supes' life and hers, pretty well in sympathetic vibration and occasional counterpoint here.
    If that's true, then it wouldn't be difficult at all to share with me how her life and her story clearly resonated with his.

    Why was it this and not something else? I don't know, other than because that's how the talent thought it'd best be told. If you didn't actively dislike it, or you're not actively bored by it, how important is Why isn't this better than good? much of a concern?
    It's not a "concern" but a point of critique. It is possible to have thoughts and opinions about something that don't amount to all or nothing thinking. You can enjoy something and yet still think about what-ifs and could-have-beens.

    That it worked for myself and others is worth mentioning simply to illustrate that it has that fundamental value
    Did I ever argue this story doesn't have fundamental value? Since I did nothing of the sort, I still cannot understand your need to make this point clear. Thinking about how one aspect of the story could have been handled more elegantly is not akin to dismissing the story's intrinsic value.

    Why is the story shaped as it is? Perhaps, simply, to reach the audience it did and make the points that it did. If it reached a different audience, was shaped to make other points, or highlight alternate points, it'd be a different comic. (And if it was unsuccessful, I could see desiring it be a different comic, but it was not, for the apparent majority of readers, unsuccessful.)
    I didn't say the comic was unsuccessful. I said it could have been more successful. Lincoln is a great film, for example, but several reviewers have pointed out that it would have been better had more time been spent highlighting the more significant role freed slaves and other African Americans had in securing their own emancipation. That isn't to say the film is bad, without value, or doesn't work as it is; it is to say that there was another layer that could have been integrated more for a more comprehensive and resonant story.

  6. #156
    Veteran Member direction9's Avatar
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    it's simply not a point of critique. or you attempt to make it one hasn't been expressed well.
    but it's really nothing to get defensive about. when someone asks you a question about your stance, they're actually asking. you don't have to answer each question with a question.
    i don't think anyone's trying to put words into your mouth one way or the other.
    Last edited by direction9; 12-06-2012 at 11:42 AM.

  7. #157
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    All this back and forth, Doesn't anyone just want a good, fun read anymore. Have we really got to the level that we must dissect everything now . Man I miss the days of just a simple read with Superman defeating the bad guy then moving on to the next issue against another bad guy.

    Ah well. I'm going to check this out tomorrow just for the shits and giggles of it. I doubt it will blow me away like most but maybe that low expectation I have may help me enjoy it more. Let's hope

  8. #158
    luchador número UNO ElMacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    As for the "flat" thing, well....;I see where you are going (his JLA?), but on the other hand, his landlady is also from the 5th dimension and she appears in 3D. i suppose the machine just looks the way they wanted it to look since they "imagined" it.
    But thanks. That's kinda what I like about this book. You can just have crazy talks about it.
    As you rightly pointed out Mrs.N, Vyn, Mxy and a host of other 5D beings have appeared in 3D forms in 3D space. Think of it like this, if you draw an isometric representation of a 3D cube on a flat 2D page, then cut it out and hold it in your hand, how similar is that to holding an actual cube in your hand?.....What we see of 5D people and items in 3D space, is simply a "flattened" 3D representation of a 5D object/person, unless they choose to show us more of them of course (a 4D Tesseract cube would be seen to constantly rotate about its own mirror image in 3D space, unless it was unfolded, or "flattened" into 8 3D cubes).

    That's why I say that the Imaginator couldn't have been physically created in 3D space, because a 3D object would have appeared flat besides those other 5D weapons in Action #15, or....perhaps the 3D machine was "converted/upscaled" into a 5D model. I prefer to think that Calrk effectively stole the Imaginator (left over from chromo-conflict 2) from 5D space with his mind, using the technique he learned in Tibet, he likely didn't realize he was "stealing" it, of course. As you said, he needed the power of more than one mind to create his Superman, and the machine allowed that. Then Vyn took it back off him in Action #9, and also corrupted their "perfect thought powered messiah", transforming him into Superdoom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    - Well, the landlady didn't lose her powers when she traveled in the 3rd dimension and became a 3 dimensionnal being (she didn't really "became one" actually, since she can show her 5 dimensionnal self to Clark), and we never hear that Mxy did. Plus, the villain has been around for some time in the 3rd dimension, and he seems as powerful as he was before. It seems that bringing them to the 3rd dimension beings make them vulnerable, but for all we know, it's already the case for Vindktvx. Nobody tried to shoot him so far, after all. That, or Nimrod had an anti 5 dimensionnal being bullet provided by Vindktvx.
    Plus, we don't really know when exactly she came to realize the plans of the Little Man (after he attacked Mxy?), so maybe by the time she understood what he was trying to do, he was already in the 3rd dimension plotting against Clark.
    As for the "strip him of his power" part, well, I'd tend to say she can't do it for the same reason she can't just wish him to die (and probably why she can't wish Mxy to get out of coma or his dad to come back to life).
    I believe Mrs.N could be shot because she was no longer truly 5D, she speaks about "shedding dimensions" and being "exiled" and "flattened". She also showed Clark the side of her standing in a higher dimension in Action #12, so I'm confused as to exactly how many dimensions there are to her. Perhaps when she spoke to Clark in #12, she was actually in the process of "shedding dimensions". Time in 3D space would also appear flat from 5D, hence things such as Vyn being able to appear anywhere and at anytime in 3D space, or Clark and his Fathers defeat of the Multitude appearing to happen almost simultaneously (different panels on the same 2D page, if you will) from 5D space. Imagine a 2D comic page containing panels capturing a character at different times in his life, past present and future, then from our 3D world you rip the page, tearing across different times in his 2D timeline randomly. Perhaps as the princess ran she skipped across several different time periods in 3D space, appearing to Clark in Action #12 just before or during her escape from Vyn, where she shed dimensions. This one is confusing.

    Rather than in a coma, I believe Mxy is in the dungeons of zrfff, having been framed for regicide by Vyn. After re-reading the backup, rather than bringing Mxy into the 3D world and transforming him into a 3D being, I believe that when Mrs.N wished a 3D Mxy into existence, the real 5D Mxy was in fact still imprisoned, while a 3D aspect of him was in 3D space with Mrs.N "They stayed connected, even though it felt like they were worlds apart". This would would further support the argument that her wishes can't really affect a 5D being directly, thank god!!.
    Last edited by ElMacho; 12-06-2012 at 11:45 AM.

  9. #159
    Veteran Member direction9's Avatar
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    i mean for instance, what does "more elegantly" mean? how was this not the most elegant method? the book you have in mind.....is it the same as this issue except without the a total of four pages of villain origin (and supporting character) origin stories? (which are very compressed here.....other writers would have made just this idea an entire arc)? going through the issue, superman isn't absent. he's in this issue, actively, just about as much as he is in any superman comic ever.

  10. #160
    Veteran Member direction9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    All this back and forth, Doesn't anyone just want a good, fun read anymore. Have we really got to the level that we must dissect everything now . Man I miss the days of just a simple read with Superman defeating the bad guy then moving on to the next issue against another bad guy.

    Ah well. I'm going to check this out tomorrow just for the shits and giggles of it. I doubt it will blow me away like most but maybe that low expectation I have may help me enjoy it more. Let's hope
    i haven't seen hardly any dissection here, just regular discussion of a fun and mysterious superhero story. this is all as it should be.

  11. #161
    Infâme et fier de l'être Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    All this back and forth, Doesn't anyone just want a good, fun read anymore. Have we really got to the level that we must dissect everything now . Man I miss the days of just a simple read with Superman defeating the bad guy then moving on to the next issue against another bad guy.

    Ah well. I'm going to check this out tomorrow just for the shits and giggles of it. I doubt it will blow me away like most but maybe that low expectation I have may help me enjoy it more. Let's hope
    I don't think it will be your thing, to tell you the truth. Plus, if you include the fact it's kind of the middle of the story.....
    Well, I won't prevent you from getting it, but it's probably best for you to not expect to much.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  12. #162
    Veteran Member El Sombrero's Avatar
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    This issue floored me. Wow. Phenomenal, probably the single best issue of the entire New 52. I was really getting let down by the last few issues of Action Comics, but in hindsight this pulls the whole run together. The integration of magic into Superman's world and continuity was excellent, I loved the fairly tale elements to the art, the villains were creative and truly threatening, the art was probably the best this title has looked and featured some wonderful storytelling...this was an issue that seized the best aspects of what makes comics fun and stimulating: imagination and iconography. Loved Mxyzptlk, loved Vyndktvx, loved Nyxly, the whole thing reminded me a bit of that Sandman issue that P. Craig Russell did. The best issue of Action Comics thus far, again something that pulled together and validated the entire run. Bravo!
    Saga, Private Eye, Chew, Umbral, Deadly Class, Pretty Deadly

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  13. #163
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I don't think it will be your thing, to tell you the truth. Plus, if you include the fact it's kind of the middle of the story.....
    Well, I won't prevent you from getting it, but it's probably best for you to not expect to much.
    Well if it shows his other lives existed and are actually still out there somewhere then I may enjoy it. Just to see some glimpse that what I had read for the past 35 years is actually still out there and could possible be visited at a later time would make this old broken down Superman fan filled with much joy.

  14. #164
    Senior Member NinjaMic's Avatar
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    I'm not even gonna lie to yall...what happened?

  15. #165
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by direction9 View Post
    it's simply not a point or critique. or you attempt to make it one hasn't been expressed well.
    Please tell me what I could do to express my concerns better, since you seem to believe you know what I should be saying and how I should say it.

    but it's really nothing to get defensive about. when someone asks you a question about your stance, they're actually asking. you don't have to answer each question with a question.
    I didn't ask you any questions. I asked two rhetorical questions about the work itself (e.g. How do those themes connect the reader to the core of what Superman represents? How is this story shaping up to be more than just a great story but a great Superman story?).

    i don't think anyone's trying to put words into your mouth one way or the other.
    You said I wanted fan service, which is not what I asked for at all. I said I wanted the elements of Superman's life that were only hinted at this issue to be explored more in depth for more emotional resonance, yet you suggested I did not express myself well because you could produce a list of plot points from the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by direction9 View Post
    i mean for instance, what does "more elegantly" mean? how was this not the most elegant method? the book you have in mind.....is it the same as this issue except without the a total of four pages of villain origin (and supporting character) origin stories? (which are very compressed here.....other writers would have made just this idea an entire arc)? going through the issue, superman isn't absent. he's in this issue, actively, just about as much as he is in any superman comic ever.
    Morrison could have written this issue more elegantly by better integrating the ideas and emotional themes in both the 5th dimension story and Clark's personal history. He could have focused on telling a story that has more to say about Clark/Superman as a person and a hero instead of doubling down on meta-commentary on the enemies of creativity and fun. Superman was much more passive in this issue than he was in several of the previous issues in this run. He didn't fundamentally do much of anything except listen. But that's not my complaint. Embedded in this story was a glimpse of Clark's first love and his last moments with his parents but both immensely important events are barely given time to breathe before the inter-dimensional drama overwhelms them. There are also aspects of those personal stories that could fit quite well with Mrs. Nyxly's tale but neither the art nor the dialogue finds a way to neatly tie them together.

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