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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's common for comics to acknowledge other continuities exist. Flashpoint and other "crises" mess with time and continuity in such a way to suggest those stories did happen at some point yet were altered a various points in time to create alternate timelines, universes, etc. Unless Morrison and DC comics start regularly referencing old continuity as having actually happened in ways that actively influence current stories, then I don't think what happened in this issue is all that groundbreaking or special. Your mileage may vary, of course, so let's just agree to disagree.

    ETA: To further explain my underwhelmed reaction, there's a thesis I read a few months ago that talks about Grant Morrison's previous approaches to similar subject matter (read here: pages 103-106). It's not that I think the ideas and execution are poor. Rather, the concept is so been there, done that for me that I'm not as impressed.
    Maybe you can now go look to some reputable sites to find reviews to show how not impressed they are to support your claims. But I think you might be hard pressed this time since many seem to love this issue.

  2. #137
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElMacho View Post
    Right, I'm just dropping in to copy and paste my comment over from the DC boards, I'm hoping someone here might be able to answer some of this stuff....




    There's some great ideas in there, but to be honest I feel a bit disappointed with this one...

    Is the "Imaginator" the same machine used by alternate universe Clark, Lois and Jimmy in Action #9?. Surely they couldn't use a 5-D weapon, not to mention invent one, I'm more inclined to think that Vyn took thier idea, their perfect thought powered messiah and then used and corrupted that idea within his "Imaginator" to create Super Doom, a demon in a box...

    I've been asking this one for a while now:

    http://new.dcuwiki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6809
    Quote:
    Of course if the time and space of our 3D world can be easily maneuvered through and manipulated by Vyn, and he's been here for centuries, I have to wonder why he didn't just kill Clark as a baby?

    Maybe Vyn feels that if he killed Clark before he was established as Superman, no one would realize what he accomplished, or something.......but it's a bit ridiculous and it needs to be addressed.

    Mrs.N's "wishes" are even worse though, why didn't she just wish that Vyn never killed the king?, or that he didn't exist or was trapped in a inescapable prison?, etc ect.......the two wishes she used seemed like a ridiculous waste, maybe she couldn't just wish for anything she wanted, but the nature of these wishes absolutely has to be addressed IMO.
    -In issue 9, Clark learned how to manifest and create life out of ideas during a travel in Tibet. Tibetan meditation is supposed to make you connect with a higher plane of existence. And what is the 5th dimension, if not a higher plane of existence? In short, they managed to create a machine able to connect with the 5th dimension. Ad what did they do with it? They sold it and packaged it.

    -Because he doesn't want to kill Clark. He doesn't care about Clark. His feud is whith Mxy. What he wants is to "ruin the joke", destroy Mxy's "best trick" as they say in the back up, prove himself superior to his rival by tricking and corrupting the one Mxy wasn't able to trick. Consider this "Bond villain stupidity", except that it's actually justified. Killing a newborn Clark wouldn't prove anything.

    - Because she can't use her "wishes" on 5th dimensional beings. That's why Vin needed the spear to kill Mxy instead of just wishing him gone.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  3. #138
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killercroc View Post
    Maybe you can now go look to some reputable sites to find reviews to show how not impressed they are to support your claims. But I think you might be hard pressed this time since many seem to love this issue.
    I didn't say it was a bad issue or poorly written. I just said it didn't personally wow me because all the things that others find impressive, and I can understand why, feels either typical for Morrison (thus not new or interesting to me) or it didn't work for me as a Superman story (since it was more about other characters). It was a great, well written story, in other words, and I can understand why people would like it and review it with high marks. I simply would have found new information and new insight into the main character I love, Superman, more satisfying instead of almost a whole issue devoted to the admittedly fantastic and amazing story of the 5th Dimension.

    There is no need to get petty and nasty because of some sort of grudge or bitterness you have against me for daring to point out that reviews for Superman #14 agreed with my specific complaint that Lodell had written Clark in his issue as a jerk. Furthermore, these threads are about discussing comics. Personal attacks, like yours here, have no place here and simply derail the discussion.

  4. #139
    Senior Member MFitzH2O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro315 View Post
    Morrison has always injected the sense that the beings from "higher dimensions" who can play with the whole grand tapestry of the fictional universe he is working in have more in common with us, or with the writers, editors, artists and whoever else actually tugging the strings. It's what led to such rousing concepts as "Is Mandrakk a multiversal avatar of Frank Miller's caustic influence?" and all that.
    Ah, the 'Superboy Prime is Yelling Directly at Diddio and Johns' Theory!
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  5. #140
    luchador nķmero UNO ElMacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -In issue 9, Clark learned how to manifest and create life out of ideas during a travel in Tibet. Tibetan meditation is supposed to make you connect with a higher plane of existence. And what is the 5th dimension, if not a higher plane of existence? In short, they managed to create a machine able to connect with the 5th dimension. Ad what did they do with it? They sold it and packaged it.
    But the Imaginator is a 5D weapon correct?, if it was physically created in 3D space, it should appear flat in 5D space, and not as the rounded weapon we saw in Action #15........?.

    It could be said that higher Mathematical dimensions are all about cramming more and more space into volumes that, when represented in a lower dimensional world, don't appear like they could contain all that space. A 2D square on a page beside an isometric representation of a 3D cube for example, or Morrison's beloved 4D Tesseract cube unfolding into 8 3D cubes. Grant proposes that inside our tiny skulls we can "fit" multiple entire universes, solar systems, galaxies, the whole works, by picturing them in our minds eye, our imagination.

    Then of course we can also "see" the past in our minds, even though it's impossible to do with the naked eye (and no camera's etc..) in our physical 3D world, some people even claim to be able to "see" the future. We can "see" the past present and future of a 2D comic book character from our 3D world. More powerful minds can imagine things (and spaces) we can't comprehend, perhaps they have more access to the "5th dimension" then we do......mind=blown.

    What if Clark didn't create that machine, but literally imagined it into existence, and what he could see and use, was only a 3D representation of a larger 5D device..............I think that might be it, thanks so much for the help Auguste!!!, finally someone else to discuss theories with .


    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Because he doesn't want to kill Clark. He doesn't care about Clark. His feud is whith Mxy. What he wants is to "ruin the joke", destroy Mxy's "best trick" as they say in the back up, prove himself superior to his rival by tricking and corrupting the one Mxy wasn't able to trick. Consider this "Bond villain stupidity", except that it's actually justified. Killing a newborn Clark wouldn't prove anything.

    - Because she can't use her "wishes" on 5th dimensional beings. That's why Vin needed the spear to kill Mxy instead of just wishing him gone.
    These two are along the same lines as I was originally thinking.

    "Maybe Vyn feels that if he killed Clark before he was established as Superman, no one would realize what he accomplished". Or as you put it, baby clark has not yet become "the King's favorite trick". Very good, I think that can be scratched off the list!

    Now onto the "wishes", she can't use them against 5D beings, and supported with evidence too!, yes I can go with that. So let me ask you this, if she could bring the 5D Myx into a 3D world, transforming him into a 3D entity, why didn't she do the same to Vyn, to strip him of his power and make him vulnerable at the same time?.

    We'll straighten this out for Grant yet Auguste!

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    or it didn't work for me as a Superman story (since it was more about other characters).
    every run of every good comic ever takes time to focus on other characters this way. this is such comics 101 stuff that anyone feeling like it's a criticism, or that it takes away from the comic they want, is simply being disingenuous about the comics they've actually enjoyed from the past.
    it also reeks of the worst ideas about fan service.

    basically: cmon

  7. #142
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElMacho View Post
    But the Imaginator is a 5D weapon correct?, if it was physically created in 3D space, it should appear flat in 5D space, and not as the rounded weapon we saw in Action #15........?.

    It could be said that higher Mathematical dimensions are all about cramming more and more space into volumes that, when represented in a lower dimensional world, don't appear like they could contain all that space. A 2D square on a page beside an isometric representation of a 3D cube for example, or Morrison's beloved 4D Tesseract cube unfolding into 8 3D cubes. Grant proposes that inside our tiny skulls we can "fit" multiple entire universes, solar systems, galaxies, the whole works, by picturing them in our minds eye, our imagination.

    Then of course we can also "see" the past in our minds, even though it's impossible to do with the naked eye (and no camera's etc..) in our physical 3D world, some people even claim to be able to "see" the future. We can "see" the past present and future of a 2D comic book character from our 3D world. More powerful minds can imagine things (and spaces) we can't comprehend, perhaps they have more access to the "5th dimension" then we do......mind=blown.

    What if Clark didn't create that machine, but literally imagined it into existence, and what he could see and use, was only a 3D representation of a larger 5D device..............I think that might be it, thanks so much for the help Auguste!!!, finally someone else to discuss theories with .




    These two are along the same lines as I was originally thinking.

    "Maybe Vyn feels that if he killed Clark before he was established as Superman, no one would realize what he accomplished". Or as you put it, baby clark has not yet become "the King's favorite trick". Very good, I think that can be scratched off the list!

    Now onto the "wishes", she can't use them against 5D beings, and supported with evidence too!, yes I can go with that. So let me ask you this, if she could bring the 5D Myx into a 3D world, transforming him into a 3D entity, why didn't she do the same to Vyn, to strip him of his power and make him vulnerable at the same time?.

    We'll straighten this out for Grant yet Auguste!
    -That's an interesting take. Back in issue 9, Jimmy said they saw monks make things appear out of thin air, without any mention of a machine. So, it's probable that Clark could theorically just have used their technic to create this "Superman" the way they did, but prefered to imagine a machine to do so because
    a) he's a tech savy 21st century guy and probably feels better with the fact of using a machine than using "magic".
    b) that way, he can have Lois and Jimmy involved in the process
    c) because it's implied that only one mind wouldn't be enough to create something on that scale. They barely managed to keep "Superman" alive for 20 minutes with the 3 of them.
    As for the "flat" thing, well....;I see where you are going (his JLA?), but on the other hand, his landlady is also from the 5th dimension and she appears in 3D. i suppose the machine just looks the way they wanted it to look since they "imagined" it.
    But thanks. That's kinda what I like about this book. You can just have crazy talks about it.

    - Well, the landlady didn't lose her powers when she traveled in the 3rd dimension and became a 3 dimensionnal being (she didn't really "became one" actually, since she can show her 5 dimensionnal self to Clark), and we never hear that Mxy did. Plus, the villain has been around for some time in the 3rd dimension, and he seems as powerful as he was before. It seems that bringing them to the 3rd dimension beings make them vulnerable, but for all we know, it's already the case for Vindktvx. Nobody tried to shoot him so far, after all. That, or Nimrod had an anti 5 dimensionnal being bullet provided by Vindktvx.
    Plus, we don't really know when exactly she came to realize the plans of the Little Man (after he attacked Mxy?), so maybe by the time she understood what he was trying to do, he was already in the 3rd dimension plotting against Clark.
    As for the "strip him of his power" part, well, I'd tend to say she can't do it for the same reason she can't just wish him to die (and probably why she can't wish Mxy to get out of coma or his dad to come back to life).
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I simply would have found new information and new insight into the main character I love, Superman
    i mean this was the issue revealing how his parents died....showing him finding out during his senior prom, displaying more of the young brash golden age exuberance and confidence even as he's hunted by an anti-army......
    there's something you didn't like here and i think you fumbled when trying to express it.

  9. #144
    Veteran Member The Beast Of Yucca Flats's Avatar
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    So, the good (or least non-evil) imp is a fun-lovin' wild & cuh-raaazy guy that's bald, and the eeeevil meanie-pants iz teh srs and has a beard. [small sigh] We get it. Don't get me wrong: I still think Morrison's Action still hits way above the weightclass of much of the Big Two's general superhero output, and the rest of the Super-line in particular can't even compete. But this "wizard's duel" Morrison seems to be trying to keep up is just getting pretty old. It's almost like watching that matador trying to get Ferdinand to notice him at this point.

  10. #145
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Beast Of Yucca Flats View Post
    So, the good (or least non-evil) imp is a fun-lovin' wild & cuh-raaazy guy that's bald, and the eeeevil meanie-pants iz teh srs and has a beard. [small sigh] We get it. Don't get me wrong: I still think Morrison's Action still hits way above the weightclass of much of the Big Two's general superhero output, and the rest of the Super-line in particular can't even compete. But this "wizard's duel" Morrison seems to be trying to keep up is just getting pretty old. It's almost like watching that matador trying to get Ferdinand to notice him at this point.
    I don't get it, actually. What do you mean?
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  11. #146

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    I think some of that is us reading into it. A thin mustache and evil little beard is very archetypally villainous, really. I'm not going to pretend that that layer doesn't exist there to some extent, but I really do believe that this is more about wild imagination vs dull mechanics, a treatise on the importance of creativity and whimsy in fiction, but also in the world.

    Among many, many other things, anyway.
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  12. #147
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    I think some of that is us reading into it. A thin mustache and evil little beard is very archetypally villainous, really. I'm not going to pretend that that layer doesn't exist there to some extent, but I really do believe that this is more about wild imagination vs dull mechanics, a treatise on the importance of creativity and whimsy in fiction, but also in the world.

    Among many, many other things, anyway.
    Well, "pointy beard of evil" isn't exactly the way I would describe Moore's haircut. More like "bushy beard of sorcery".
    With that said, I really have no interest in that personnal feud between them. Mostly because it's, well, personnal.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  13. #148
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    I think he should instruct the artist to hang a "This is Not Alan Moore" sign around Vinny's neck.

    Not that I think he's actually a Moore riff.

    (And, to be fair, Moore did just do a comic where the villain is an angry bald British manchild trying usher in a new age by swinging his, um, magic wand around angrily.)

    I repeat: I don't think Vinny's actually a Moore riff. I do think he might be a Zor/Temptation riff, though. And, no, I don't think that's contradictory.

  14. #149
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by direction9 View Post
    every run of every good comic ever takes time to focus on other characters this way. this is such comics 101 stuff that anyone feeling like it's a criticism, or that it takes away from the comic they want, is simply being disingenuous about the comics they've actually enjoyed from the past.
    it also reeks of the worst ideas about fan service.

    basically: cmon
    Now, you come on. I'm not asking for fan service or a return to nostalgia. Don't put words in my mouth. I saw the seeds for a more personal Superman story planted in this issue but they were crowded out by 5th dimensional lore, which was interesting and clever, but overall it left me wanting. I've seen writers, including Grant Morrison, who are capable of achieving more balance. There were glimpses of more emotionally resonant stories (i.e. Kal-El and Jor-El defeating the Multitude simultaneously, Clark's relationship with Lana and his late parents, etc.), but Morrison chose to focus most of his attention on emotional beats in Mrs. Nyxly's life.

    More importantly, this arc seems to be telling a story that is more a meta-commentary on the enemies of creativity and storytelling, which is interesting no doubt, but how do those themes connect the reader to the core of what Superman represents? How is this story shaping up to be more than just a great story but a great Superman story? Morrison may yet tie those loose ends together; however, right now it feels like the thread is getting lost among the cleverness and fun.

    In short, there is a better way to focus on developing a plot and its villain without short-changing the main character. I saw opportunities in this issue for Morrison to connect the reader to Superman that he only cursorily touched upon. This issue was fantastic but ultimately it could have been so much more than a twisted and splendid ode to the 5th dimension and its influence on Earth and its champion, Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by direction9 View Post
    i mean this was the issue revealing how his parents died....showing him finding out during his senior prom, displaying more of the young brash golden age exuberance and confidence even as he's hunted by an anti-army......
    there's something you didn't like here and i think you fumbled when trying to express it.
    You don't get to tell me what I should have expressed. I said exactly what I meant, and I stand by it. All of the things you mention above were only hints at story elements that deserved more care and attention. They were ideas without emotion because their presence in the story was so ephemeral. More could have been done to capitalize on those plot points to connect the reader to Superman's emotional point of view. As it was presented, they were facts without feeling.
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-06-2012 at 10:42 AM.

  15. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    I think he should instruct the artist to hang a "This is Not Alan Moore" sign around Vinny's neck.

    Not that I think he's actually a Moore riff.

    (And, to be fair, Moore did just do a comic where the villain is an angry bald British manchild trying usher in a new age by swinging his, um, magic wand around angrily.)

    I repeat: I don't think Vinny's actually a Moore riff. I do think he might be a Zor/Temptation riff, though. And, no, I don't think that's contradictory.
    I think there are elements of Alan Moore's work that rankle Morrison, and I think Zor/V embody those elements, and many many others. That's about as far as I'm willing to go with it.

    Zor/Vindictivix everything that's bad about Moore/Miller/Johns/etc rather than any one individual.

    And Moore has taken his shots, certainly. "League" aside, the comic book writer in Supreme was so obviously Morrison I felt like I was being slapped across the face with it.
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