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  1. #46
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    This is kind of why I didn't like it as much.



    And I don't find any of those characters particularly interesting.



    A story about those things would interest me, but I would prefer it be told through Superman and not other dimensional beings. There are so few issues of Morrison's take on Superman left, and while I was anxious about his run and have had some criticisms of it, I was eager to see his take on Superman. Instead, the stories too often feel like a distraction/detour; they don't really succeed in filling in those precious narrative gaps between Action and Superman. So far Action #0 was my favorite because it helped me understand the protagonist and his world. But, that's just me. Your mileage may vary.



    I find this criticism a bit unfair. Action Comics has been all about the character at least from issue 1 to 8, and from issue 10 to 13. At first, it was about how a farmboy from Kansas tried to use his inner power in a meaningful way and discovered his origin and legacy. Then, it has been about his identity crisis and his confusion as to who he wanted to be, Clark Kent or Kal El, the down to earth crusader or the high up symbol, and ultimately how didn't have to choose between one or the other (does it not defeat the villain by simply act how it felt right? Does he not decide that Clark the crusading reporter was as much a hero as Superman? Did he not save Lois by a feat worthy of the Silver Age?). Issue 13 was a proclamation of what made the character who he is: his will and determination.
    Issues 14 and 15 do focus more on the trio of imps, true. There was a need to do so, considering how the conflict between these 3 is the very source of the upcomign threat. It was necessary. But even then, the whole thing is also all about Superman. They do represent godhood, but the fact the Little man calls Superman "a mangod" is very telling to me.It's about the gods medling with mankind, and how one of the "inferiors" is beyond their influence by his very essence, no matter how much Mxy plays tricks on him, no matter how much Vindtkvx influences his life for the worst. Superman will always be Superman.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  2. #47
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I find this criticism a bit unfair. Action Comics has been all about the character at least from issue 1 to 8, and from issue 10 to 13. At first, it was about how a farmboy from Kansas tried to use his inner power in a meaningful way and discovered his origin and legacy. Then, it has been about his identity crisis and his confusion as to who he wanted to be, Clark Kent or Kal El, the down to earth crusader or the high up symbol, and ultimately how didn't have to choose between one or the other (does it not defeat the villain by simply act how it felt right? Does he not decide that Clark the crusading reporter was as much a hero as Superman? Did he not save Lois by a feat worthy of the Silver Age?). Issue 13 was a proclamation of what made the character who he is: his will and determination.
    First of all, I didn't say all of Morrison's run has been disappointing. Issues #1-8 did do a lot of character development and world building, but there have been a lot of detours. Every issue, including this most recent one, have included some sort of snippet about Clark/Superman. This issue, for example, showed us a glimpse of Clark's life in Smallville. Nonetheless, my complaint is that there have been multiple issues of this title where important aspects of Superman's characterization and world have been shortchanged in favor of plot. Don't get me wrong, Morrison's plots are imaginative, fascinating, and entertaining but there are only two issues left of Morrison's run, which wraps up his origin of Superman, and there are still many details left unexplored.

    Issues 14 and 15 do focus more on the trio of imps, true. There was a need to do so, considering how the conflict between these 3 is the very source of the upcomign threat. It was necessary. But even then, the whole thing is also all about Superman. They do represent godhood, but the fact the Little man calls Superman "a mangod" is very telling to me.It's about the gods medling with mankind, and how one of the "inferiors" is beyond their influence by his very essence, no matter how much Mxy plays tricks on him, no matter how much Vindtkvx influences his life for the worst. Superman will always be Superman.
    Look, I get it. I get the purpose behind this arc, but I don't think so much time needed to be devoted to making the point that Superman will always be Superman.

  3. #48
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    It's worth pointing out the Fifth Dimension, at least Morrison's version, is based on his experience in Kathmandu where he claims to have experienced higher dimensions and "aliens."

    I'm not really interested in the mystic stuff he gets into, but it's an interesting source for the stories.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Look, I get it. I get the purpose behind this arc, but I don't think so much time needed to be devoted to making the point that Superman will always be Superman.
    Really? It's Morrison- it's breaking the fourth wall, it's also talking about the reboot. And given that I've seen so many people say "NOT MY SUPERMAN", evidently it's a point worth repeating.

  5. #50
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    Really? It's Morrison- it's breaking the fourth wall, it's also talking about the reboot. And given that I've seen so many people say "NOT MY SUPERMAN", evidently it's a point worth repeating.
    I didn't say it was an irrelevant point. I said it was a point that could be made more succinctly. Also, I don't believe Morrison has made the point that changes can be made to Superman yet he will remain true to himself. Morrison's Action #9, for example, seemed to imply corporate interference can destroy a heroic character like Superman.
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-05-2012 at 12:47 PM.

  6. #51
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    First of all, I didn't say all of Morrison's run has been disappointing. Issues #1-8 did do a lot of character development and world building, but there have been a lot of detours. Every issue, including this most recent one, have included some sort of snippet about Clark/Superman. This issue, for example, showed us a glimpse of Clark's life in Smallville. Nonetheless, my complaint is that there have been multiple issues of this title where important aspects of Superman's characterization and world have been shortchanged in favor of plot. Don't get me wrong, Morrison's plots are imaginative, fascinating, and entertaining but there are only two issues left of Morrison's run, which wraps up his origin of Superman, and there are still many details left unexplored.



    Look, I get it. I get the purpose behind this arc, but I don't think so much time needed to be devoted to making the point that Superman will always be Superman.
    -Actually, I think the origin story part ended on issue 8, with him "flying" away after being given the key to the city and visiting his parents' grave. A comic book can't always be origin exploration, at one point there needs to be, well, a story, an adventure. And it has never been said Morrison would be only working on the origin story (he pretty much always said it was about 6 issues long, which, if you exclude the "interlude", is what we got), just like Byrne stayed long after dealing with it.

    -In a period of hard reboot with some big changes and accusations of "ruining the character" flying around, I think on the contrary it's the perfect moment to take some time making that point. And if making it includes 5th dimensional imps, and Superman facing his doom at different point of his life at once, well, fine with me.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  7. #52
    Veteran Member Retro315's Avatar
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    Absolute joy to read.

    Nimrod's greatest kill. Drekken finally gets a super-villain codename. Continuity everywhere, slipping into the cracks. A manhunt ... a 'supermanhunt' ... a billion years in the future when the sun is big and red, but what, long before any of the Sheeda would come about. A nod to K-Man's recent origin in the Annual. A Cosmic Sideshow Bob.

    I got the feeling the Nothingcoat that shattered into shards could've been the origin of the Phantom Zone. The Demon in a Box, I presume has to refer to Superdoom, but it's soooo clearly a parallel to what Darkseid recently unleashed on Bruce Wayne. A thought-weapon, a living idea that retcons nightmares into existence ... an evil Tulpa. Superdoom is supposed to be a thoughtform given life by Lantern-like technology and twisted for evil by Executives and Analysts.

    I've been wondering about the parallels between New Gods and 5th Dimensional djinn for a while now. There's commonalities. They're alike but also very different - but I think they're likely to occur on the same higher plane. Or maybe the 4th World of the New Gods is a 4-Dimensional one and because they're "one plane higher" they can perceive and use 5-D far better than us 3-D types can (We have access to the higher planes, but it is a somewhat limited access). Certainly "Time" could be added to the makeup of the New Gods, which would explain their timelessness and immortality.

    I wonder who Captain Comet's "Wanderers" are.
    "Everything hs changed. ‘Dark’ entertainment now looks like hysterical, adolescent, ‘Zibarro’ crap." - Morrison, 2008.
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  8. #53
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Actually, I think the origin story part ended on issue 8, with him "flying" away after being given the key to the city and visiting his parents' grave. A comic book can't always be origin exploration, at one point there needs to be, well, a story, an adventure. And it has never been said Morrison would be only working on the origin story (he pretty much always said it was about 6 issues long, which, if you exclude the "interlude", is what we got), just like Byrne stayed long after dealing with it.
    That's not the origin I'm referring to, though. I think readers deserve more than a few glimpses of what took place between Superman's first year as a hero and his contemporary adventures in Superman. What Byrne did is of no interest to me, since I don't hold his origin up as a bastion of quality storytelling either.

    -In a period of hard reboot with some big changes and accusations of "ruining the character" flying around, I think on the contrary it's the perfect moment to take some time making that point. And if making it includes 5th dimensional imps, and Superman facing his doom at different point of his life at once, well, fine with me.
    It's fine with me, too. But I still think this story and its central message could have been conveyed much more concisely in order to fill in more gaps in Superman's characterization and history. The origins of Mxy, for example, could have been simplified, or at least integrated with some more details of Clark's life in Smallville, without losing the thread of the overall story.

  9. #54
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    That's not the origin I'm referring to, though. I think readers deserve more than a few glimpses of what took place between Superman's first year as a hero and his contemporary adventures in Superman. What Byrne did is of no interest to me, since I don't hold his origin up as a bastion of quality storytelling either.



    It's fine with me, too. But I still think this story and its central message could have been conveyed much more concisely in order to fill in more gaps in Superman's characterization and history. The origins of Mxy, for example, could have been simplified, or at least integrated with some more details of Clark's life in Smallville, without losing the thread of the overall story.
    -I'm not sure what you need to know, though. Between the first year and the present, he had adventures. We saw some of them (the whole Krypto thing, the fight with Kryptonite Man), we probably see some others when it will be relevant to show them. I mean that's generally how it goes, they're not going to show us the things he's done in 5 years. Even if it was possible, it would be counterproductive. More Smallville? Honestly, I don't think we need to know more about Smallville, we know his friends, his first love, we know some things about his parents. How he was hired in the Planet? Considering they've been trying to since the very beginning, I'd say it wasn't really necessary. I don't know, I think we know what we need to know and a few more, and I respect the idea of leaving the rest to be filled by following writers when the time is right.

    -C'mon, the Mxy origin was almost the best part.
    I don't know, I just don't see the problem with taking some time developping the Big Bad's motivations.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    First of all, I didn't say all of Morrison's run has been disappointing. Issues #1-8 did do a lot of character development and world building, but there have been a lot of detours. Every issue, including this most recent one, have included some sort of snippet about Clark/Superman. This issue, for example, showed us a glimpse of Clark's life in Smallville. Nonetheless, my complaint is that there have been multiple issues of this title where important aspects of Superman's characterization and world have been shortchanged in favor of plot. Don't get me wrong, Morrison's plots are imaginative, fascinating, and entertaining but there are only two issues left of Morrison's run, which wraps up his origin of Superman, and there are still many details left unexplored.



    Look, I get it. I get the purpose behind this arc, but I don't think so much time needed to be devoted to making the point that Superman will always be Superman.
    Instead objecting to other people liking a story as your review...why don't do a nice break down of the issue and actually give a review? What's actually so not good about this issue? Is there anything you like?

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -I'm not sure what you need to know, though. Between the first year and the present, he had adventures. We saw some of them (the whole Krypto thing, the fight with Kryptonite Man), we probably see some others when it will be relevant to show them. I mean that's generally how it goes, they're not going to show us the things he's done in 5 years. Even if it was possible, it would be counterproductive. More Smallville? Honestly, I don't think we need to know more about Smallville, we know his friends, his first love, we know some things about his parents. How he was hired in the Planet? Considering they've been trying to since the very beginning, I'd say it wasn't really necessary. I don't know, I think we know what we need to know and a few more, and I respect the idea of leaving the rest to be filled by following writers when the time is right.

    -C'mon, the Mxy origin was almost the best part.
    I don't know, I just don't see the problem with taking some time developping the Big Bad's motivations.
    It seems to me that giving a villain multiple prongs for his motivation gives him more gravitas (and increases his value for re-use, as there's more hooks to hang a story on). A villain with only one motivation seems fairly thin and disappoints. There's all sorts of things here, from thwarted romance to self-hate/guilt to diversion of guilt to everything else that makes this guy a bit more interesting and complex than your usual revealed comic book villain.

  12. #57
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwangung View Post
    It seems to me that giving a villain multiple prongs for his motivation gives him more gravitas (and increases his value for re-use, as there's more hooks to hang a story on). A villain with only one motivation seems fairly thin and disappoints. There's all sorts of things here, from thwarted romance to self-hate/guilt to diversion of guilt to everything else that makes this guy a bit more interesting and complex than your usual revealed comic book villain.
    Yeah, you can also add pure insanity (he sure didn't seem to have taken well the fact he murdered the king instead of Mxy), or a desire to prove himself superior to Mxy by tricking the one Mxy was never able to trick (which would probably explain why he doesn't just erase Superman, or turn him into stone. He tries to play by the same rules than Mxy, just more.....evil).
    But yeah, I like this Vindtkvx. I like the different aspects he has. Businessman. Devil. Magician. Omnipotent being from another dimension.
    Sounds like "full of win" to me.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  13. #58

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    I want to cover my body in pages from this book, it is so good.
    Check out my New Blog! Just a random assortment of ideas, thoughts, and reviews!

    http://heshouldreallyknowbetter.blogspot.com/

  14. #59
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    It's worth pointing out the Fifth Dimension, at least Morrison's version, is based on his experience in Kathmandu where he claims to have experienced higher dimensions and "aliens."

    I'm not really interested in the mystic stuff he gets into, but it's an interesting source for the stories.
    It's called dropping acid.

  15. #60
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    It's called dropping acid.
    Just like the Beatles and Elvis, then.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

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