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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    All of them fit better than Spidey and Wolverine. It's about the right mix of nobility, attitude. To me the Avengers are like the Knights of the Round Table.
    But you are not an authority on the subject matter, and your opinion doesn't matter over anyone else.

    You want to argue something, you don't hinge your argument on your own personal opinion and leave it at that. You need to come up with an argument that proves that without it just being "That's how I view it." You have to show how it fits a larger trend.

    In my opinion first, he is just too much of a star, second too overbearing to be there, third, it's in his nature to pop his claws first, to me he doesn't have the matching personality to be an Avenger. Not like I view them anyway. Maybe he can fit in a revamp concept wich is what Bendis did with New Avengers in 04. But not in a traditional Avengers mold, the way I like them.
    Again, WHAT IS A TRADITIONAL AVENGERS MOLD? You haven't specified what that is yet!

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    So, without the charter, the Avengers couldn't just call Yellowjacket into a closed door meeting and say "Hey, about this thing about you going crazy and beating your wife...."



    You haven't explained why that is a bad thing.

    Two teams of heroes trying to save the world? Who cares if they share the same name?



    Which barely influenced any story.



    And to others, it barely mattered.



    And the Avengers were the best of the best, a group of heroes who banded together to save the world from threats they couldn't handle alone.

    You don't need a charter to be that.




    And they all managed to set themselves apart without having "charters."



    Except that you don't.



    Sounds like you DO mind calling those teams Avengers.



    Except you haven't proved HOW the charter set that standard. You just say the charter was PRESENT during that period. That doesn't prove how it was essential to EVERY action the Avengers took.



    The exact same rules that they followed during the period where they had the charter- Save lives, stop the bad guys, work together to stop larger threats.

    You're not really proving your position as to why the charter was so important. You're asking US to disprove YOU, which assumes that YOUR position is simply "right." Yet you haven't done anything to PROVE that. The onus isn't on us to disprove YOUR argument. The onus is on YOU to provide arguments- with evidence and examples- which SHOW why the charter WAS so essential to the Avengers everyday operation, and how- without it- the later Avengers could not be considered "official" or "real" Avengers.

    You need help with providing examples, as CJ Striker. He's good at providing examples to back up his arguments.
    3 post just to yell at me?

    Ok, you win, their Avengers.

  3. #153
    Junior Member Sir Duke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    All of them fit better than Spidey and Wolverine. It's about the right mix of nobility, attitude. To me the Avengers are like the Knights of the Round Table.



    In my opinion first, he is just too much of a star, second too overbearing to be there, third, it's in his nature to pop his claws first, to me he doesn't have the matching personality to be an Avenger. Not like I view them anyway. Maybe he can fit in a revamp concept wich is what Bendis did with New Avengers in 04. But not in a traditional Avengers mold, the way I like them.
    And in my opinion the Avengers should be Marvel's biggest and most iconic heroes, which absolutely includes Wolverine and Spider-Man. Now please explain how your opinion is more correct than mine.

  4. #154
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastafarian42 View Post
    I'm not going to lie I always wondered why Spider-man and Wolverine weren't on the Avengers when I was younger.
    Wolverine was busy being an X-Man mainstay. and since the Avengers weren't (at that time) pro-murder, he would have been a poor candidate for membership. and, what everyone seems to forget, is that Spider-man was an Avenger. he was bounced because he couldn't quite grasp teamwork.
    60% percent of the time, Ant-Man beats Doom every time

  5. #155
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Duke View Post
    I personally disliked most of Bendis' run at the time. It suffered from poor execution and Bendis had trouble making each character's voice unique. That said, I agree with just about everything Zen-aku says. Monty, to borrow from Zen's status, "I'm so bored with your martyrdom routine." Get over yourself.
    in this case, i don't need to. you personally disliked most of Bendis' run, at the time. i just continued disliking it because it was lousy writing. it did suffer from poor execution. and i've seen no evidence that Bendis can write in another voice. and i had absolutely no problem with Luke Cage, Wolverine, Spider-woman, Sentry, and Spider-man (for the second time) being Avengers. it's just that Bendis sucks as a writer. he created a situation where i couldn't even enjoy a well-drawn book showcasing characters that i like. you tell me to get over myself because i refuse to kiss some hyped up fan fic writer's rear; while simultaneously admitting to not liking his work, at one point. i'm not the one who needs to self-reflect.
    60% percent of the time, Ant-Man beats Doom every time

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    Wolverine was busy being an X-Man mainstay. and since the Avengers weren't (at that time) pro-murder, he would have been a poor candidate for membership.
    Which is odd, given that they allowed Thor on the team. And he killed a guy during the Mutant Massacre.

    and, what everyone seems to forget, is that Spider-man was an Avenger. he was bounced because he couldn't quite grasp teamwork.
    Which is wrong. He tried OUT to be an Avenger, and was even given a chance to join the team. However, the government rejected him due to his vigilante status. Spidey didn't want to stick around and wait to sort it out.

    Second time, he just showed up to help and practically ALL the Avengers agreed that he was a good fit for the team. However, Cap changed his mind at the last minute.

    And the whole "Can't grasp teamwork" thing doesn't make a lot of sense, given all the times he teamed up with practically every Marvel hero out there, past, present AND future.

  7. #157
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    Which is odd, given that they allowed Thor on the team. And he killed a guy during the Mutant Massacre.

    i will repeat. The Avengers were not pro-murder, a the time. and Thor had been on the team a long long time before he acted like a barbarian. plus, his actions had consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    Second time, he just showed up to help and practically ALL the Avengers agreed that he was a good fit for the team. However, Cap changed his mind at the last minute.

    And the whole "Can't grasp teamwork" thing doesn't make a lot of sense, given all the times he teamed up with practically every Marvel hero out there, past, present AND future.
    how does what you said invalidate what i said? and why didn't you bother to illuminate your fellow posters on Cap's reasons for changing his mind?
    60% percent of the time, Ant-Man beats Doom every time

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    i will repeat. The Avengers were not pro-murder, a the time. and Thor had been on the team a long long time before he acted like a barbarian. plus, his actions had consequences.
    And the X-Men weren't "pro-murder" either. Labeling Wolverine a murderer just shows how ignorant you are being.

    If you can't argue without resorting to inflammatory hyperbole, then it shows how desperate you are to have a point.

    how does what you said invalidate what i said? and why didn't you bother to illuminate your fellow posters on Cap's reasons for changing his mind?
    Because I don't really understand it myself. Most of the issue was about Cap realizing that Spidey worked well with the team. Then he goes off on his own to try and solve the problem, then Cap shows him the door because he didn't feel his style "fit" well with the team.

    Of course, this sequence were written and drawn by a different creative team than the ones working on the book, so it might not have been the intention of the creative team on the book at the time.

  9. #159
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    And the X-Men weren't "pro-murder" either. Labeling Wolverine a murderer just shows how ignorant you are being.
    i have no idea what you're talking about. if you look up a few posts you will see me clearly state that i had no problem with Wolverine joining the team. and normally i would say something nasty in response. but that's against the rules. so you'll just have to imagine me saying it.

    here's that post again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    in this case, i don't need to. you personally disliked most of Bendis' run, at the time. i just continued disliking it because it was lousy writing. it did suffer from poor execution. and i've seen no evidence that Bendis can write in another voice. and i had absolutely no problem with Luke Cage, Wolverine, Spider-woman, Sentry, and Spider-man (for the second time) being Avengers. it's just that Bendis sucks as a writer. he created a situation where i couldn't even enjoy a well-drawn book showcasing characters that i like. you tell me to get over myself because i refuse to kiss some hyped up fan fic writer's rear; while simultaneously admitting to not liking his work, at one point. i'm not the one who needs to self-reflect.
    60% percent of the time, Ant-Man beats Doom every time

  10. #160
    Senior Member dreyga2000's Avatar
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    Seriously, how are people still going on about this? Come on now it's almost been a decade Wolverine and Spider-Man are Avenger mainstays... Just let it go...
    All stories are imaginary, so you get to decide what's important and what isn't. Continuity is fluid.

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    Quoted for truth....

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Duke View Post
    And in my opinion the Avengers should be Marvel's biggest and most iconic heroes, which absolutely includes Wolverine and Spider-Man. Now please explain how your opinion is more correct than mine.
    But the Avengers are not Marvel's JLA and have never been.

    But i'm not opposed to Marvel going that way since it seem like Hickman is going to and maybe the experiment could be worth the trip.
    Last edited by Frank; 12-03-2012 at 07:13 PM.
    Legato - Frank, Calm Down Your Nerd Rage!

  12. #162
    FRENCH Frank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    But you are not an authority on the subject matter, and your opinion doesn't matter over anyone else.

    You want to argue something, you don't hinge your argument on your own personal opinion and leave it at that. You need to come up with an argument that proves that without it just being "That's how I view it." You have to show how it fits a larger trend.



    Again, WHAT IS A TRADITIONAL AVENGERS MOLD? You haven't specified what that is yet!
    WHY ARE YOU THE ONLY AVENGERS FAN IN HISTORY THAT DOESN'T GET IT? Why must we always come back to this conversation with you? Tell me. Have you read any Avengers stories before 04? Can't you differanciate between Black Knight and Deathcry and why Dane is a better fit? The Avengers are not the Defenders were anybody can join. It's an elite group of individuals with a certain type of noble personality. That is why Hulk stayed with them for a song early on, because he didn't fit. It stayed that way since 2000 when Millar had him join them in the Ultimates. He never re-joined because it's editors and writers during these 40s years that got "it", that got that he was too much of a volatile personality and he did not fit in the Avengers mold. Avengers Mold? Think Knights of the Round Table.

    And that's the last word i'm gonna say about this because tired of your crap.
    Legato - Frank, Calm Down Your Nerd Rage!

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    But the Avengers are not Marvel's JLA and have never been.

    But i'm not opposed to Marvel going that way since it seem like Hickman is going to and maybe the experiment could be worth the trip.
    Founding Avengers.

    Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Ant-Man and The Wasp.

    They all had ongoings or were appearing in ongoings. (Although Jan was Hank's partner.)

    Yeah, The Avengers did start out as Marvel's JLA.
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    But the Avengers are not Marvel's JLA and have never been.
    Which in no way negates the legitimacy of Spidey or Wolverine as Avengers.

    And who are you to say what the Avengers are or are not? Some people may regard the Avengers as Marvel's equivalent to the JLA, and they would be perfectly reasonable in their assessment.

    But i'm not opposed to Marvel going that way since it seem like Hickman is going to and maybe the experiment could be worth the trip.
    And yet you use that same analysis as a criticism for some characters legitimacy as Avengers.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    WHY ARE YOU THE ONLY AVENGERS FAN IN HISTORY THAT DOESN'T GET IT? Why must we always come back to this conversation with you? Tell me. Have you read any Avengers stories before 04? Can't you differanciate between Black Knight and Deathcry and why Dane is a better fit?
    Nope.

    Sorry.

    Doesn't work that way.

    You make the differential, you make the argument. It's not up to me to disprove YOUR statement. It's up to YOU to prove it FIRST. It doesn't work the other way around.

    And pretending your argument is the "right" one and "everyone else" agrees with you, or arguing that someone who disagrees couldn't POSSIBLY have read an Avengers story before '04 (which you would be wrong about. I've read PLENTY of Avengers stories, starting with their very first stories, and touching on practically every era) doesn't make your point any more salient. It just shows how weak your position is that you can't come up with something legitimate, so you question the legitimacy of those that disagree.

    The Avengers are not the Defenders were anybody can join. It's an elite group of individuals with a certain type of noble personality.
    How do you define this "elite group." Why are Spidey and Wolvie not "noble" enough, what with their long history of self sacrifice and outright heroics? How are they not "elite," being two of the most experienced heroes in the Marvel Universe, both of them operating LONG before those "traditional" Avengers you trumpet.

    Again, you don't get to say that some Avengers fit this imaginary criteria and some don't, based SOLELY on your analysis of the franchise. YOU ARE NOT AN EXPERT, and you haven't proven yourself as such. All you've done is trumpet your OWN opinion as the right one, and demand everyone else prove you "wrong."

    I'm not going to play that game. You want to prove this, you do the work. Like I said, it's not up to me to disprove YOUR point, when you haven't proven it in the first place.

    That is why Hulk stayed with them for a song early on, because he didn't fit. It stayed that way since 2000 when Millar had him join them in the Ultimates.
    Which has nothing to do with the Avengers and their "nobility..."

    He never re-joined because it's editors and writers during these 40s years that got "it", that got that he was too much of a volatile personality and he did not fit in the Avengers mold.
    Or because his status quo as a monster on the run made it hard for him to join any team.

    It was a logistics issue more than a philosophical one.

    Avengers Mold? Think Knights of the Round Table.
    Right.

    Now prove that that is absolutely the case.

    Pretending you are right does not make you right.

    And that's the last word i'm gonna say about this because tired of your crap.
    So, in other words, because you can't back up your claim, you're taking your ball and going home?

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