Is the Man of Steel Doomed?

[Ian Pressman]

It'll be fine if it shows Superman doing cool things. I love the Hackman Lex, but I'm ready to see Superman punch someone to the moon, not foil evil real estate tycoons.

[Mat001]

Superman returns was a terrible movie because it totally missed the point of who Superman is,
spying on people with Xray vision?

Right, because he's never done it before in the whole history of the character.

Getting your girlfriend preggers and become a dead beat dad??

Kinda difficult to call him a deadbeat dad, when he didn't know that she was pregnant when he left. You'd be accurate if it was like this.

[Tra-EL]

EVERYTHING about that setup in the first place was ODD. Not only did Superman KNOW he nutted in her, but he basically erased Lois's mind (Silver-Age, anyone?) knowing the chances and potentials of her being pregnant and the risks involved in the art of sex and just leaves. On top of that, he never even thought to tell ANYBODY about it beforehand, was gone for 5 years, comes back and expects to step right in between a good man and his marriage (one who took care of his little one in the first place and was THEE father figure to little Jason.) Superman moped about being involved in this non-moral attitude, spying on Lois and actually feeling compelled to feel sad about his luck for all the 2 minutes he was back on Earth without even considering the fact of what could happen in a measly year without him, let alone FIVE. Shit, Richard White was more heroic in many ways in Superman Returns than Superman was. I have a soft spot for SR because I DO like some elements from the Donnerverse, but I love it even MORE (now) because it's the stepping stone to the reboot in Man of Steel.

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

the original superhero

I'm not a fan of the silverage at all, I think those silly, escapist, happy stories are dumb. However sometimes they work, the upbeat, bright, heroic age is great in some movies it works for Donner Reeve. This is classic Superman
and Avengers had a little of that upbeat tone.
I'm sad to see the Willaims score won't be there anymore

Making Superman dark, edgy, dull, gothic and gritty kind of misses the point of what Superman's character is supposed to me

I know I'm not the only person who questions the direction

movies.yahoo.com/blogs/wide-screen/where-happy-superheroes-gone-200559719.html
"Superman Returns" — released in 2006, a year after "Batman Begins" — was the last big-screen outing for the big blue boy scout. The Bryan Singer-directed film only got the new superhero formula half right though, putting a contemplative "Batman Begins"-style Superman into the colourful Metropolis of the Richard Donner "Superman" films. It didn't work. Subsequent super-powered films like "Spider-Man 3" and "The Incredible Hulk" tried the dark approach, too, but none of these films could make the heavy emotional themes jibe with the comparatively cartoonish stories.

englishforums.com/English/ShouldSupermanGoDark/kvrkn/post.htm
Immediately, fan reaction ran the gamut of those who were thrilled to hear about a “Dark Knight”-influenced Superman to those who equate a meaner, nastier Superman as sacrilege. And these reactions certainly weren’t limited to the fan-fueled message boards — comic book writers and artists were also quick to voice their opinions on the new directive.
“”How stupid is that?” exclaimed “Hellboy” and “Buffy” writer Christopher Golden. “That announcement made my head spin. ‘Iron Man’ isn’t dark. ‘Iron Man’ worked because Favreau brought in all the best Iron Man creators and had them read the script and asked them, ‘Tell me what we did wrong?’ — and it worked because it had all the best things about Iron Man boiled down into the best movie they could make. ‘The Dark Knight’ was really good because it had all the best things about ‘Batman’ boiled down into the best movie they could make. Making a dark and gritty Superman movie because Dark Knight made a ton of money is incredibly stupid.”

http://screenrant.com/superman-man-o...r-arrest-plot/
Can You Arrest Superman?

trailer is so dark and gritty, it's almost like a Batman movie
http://www.wdyms.com/2012/12/man-of-...-dark-and.html

http://universaldork.com/2012/07/23/...uperman-movie/
I just don’t know how I feel about this one so far. What works for Batman may not necessarily work for Superman.

There is a such thing as being too serious, look at Superman Returns, Daredevil, and The Hulk, all three of those movies barely had a smile in them, and general audiences hated them.
Read more at http://www.comicbookmovie.com/

[Eliseu Gouveia]

EVERYTHING about that setup in the first place was ODD. Not only did Superman KNOW he nutted in her, but he basically erased Lois's mind (Silver-Age, anyone?) knowing the chances and potentials of her being pregnant and the risks involved in the art of sex and just leaves. On top of that, he never even thought to tell ANYBODY about it beforehand, was gone for 5 years, comes back and expects to step right in between a good man and his marriage (one who took care of his little one in the first place and was THEE father figure to little Jason.) Superman moped about being involved in this non-moral attitude, spying on Lois and actually feeling compelled to feel sad about his luck for all the 2 minutes he was back on Earth without even considering the fact of what could happen in a measly year without him, let alone FIVE. Shit, Richard White was more heroic in many ways in Superman Returns than Superman was. I have a soft spot for SR because I DO like some elements from the Donnerverse, but I love it even MORE (now) because it's the stepping stone to the reboot in Man of Steel.

The part where Lex got released due to his absence is always a fan favorite.

Or the fact that he would leave his fortress of solitude defenseless, knowing the tech it holds AND knowing that Lex (of all people) knew its location.

[Mat001]

EVERYTHING about that setup in the first place was ODD. Not only did Superman KNOW he nutted in her, but he basically erased Lois's mind (Silver-Age, anyone?) knowing the chances and potentials of her being pregnant and the risks involved in the art of sex and just leaves.

Even before "Superman Returns", Clark and Lois weren't exactly thinking about those things during the events of "Superman II". Not to mention that in real life, people don't think about the consequences of unprotected sex. As to leaving, he left because Krypton had been discovered. It was a big deal.

On top of that, he never even thought to tell ANYBODY about it beforehand, was gone for 5 years, comes back and expects to step right in between a good man and his marriage (one who took care of his little one in the first place and was THEE father figure to little Jason.)

He didn't tell Lois because she would tell him not to leave. He knew that which is why he didn't go to her to say goodbye. Martha and NASA did know. Also, Lois wasn't married to Richard. They had been engaged all those years, but never went through with the marriage. And if she was really happy with Richard, Superman wouldn't be her password and she would have done married him.

Superman moped about being involved in this non-moral attitude, spying on Lois and actually feeling compelled to feel sad about his luck for all the 2 minutes he was back on Earth without even considering the fact of what could happen in a measly year without him, let alone FIVE. Shit, Richard White was more heroic in many ways in Superman Returns than Superman was. I have a soft spot for SR because I DO like some elements from the Donnerverse, but I love it even MORE (now) because it's the stepping stone to the reboot in Man of Steel.

Clark's moping was knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's the last of his kind, aside from three sociopaths that were too dangerous to associate with. No, he didn't think that Lois would move on like that. He was more concerned about finding his people and finally feeling as if he belonged.

Making Superman dark, edgy, dull, gothic and gritty kind of misses the point of what Superman's character is supposed to me

None of which is in this film. There's no gothic in this film. Gritty? Did anyone watch the Donner film with a Metropolis that was filmed on the streets of NYC, during the late 1970's which was about as gritty as you can get. Dark? Yeah, how about when the Phantom Zone criminals were killing those astronauts and physically harming people during their efforts to kill Superman. Or when Lex coldly said that he gets off on causing the deaths of a few million people, just so he could make money. Edgy? Right. In Action Comics #1, he threw a guy at a wall without a care that he could have caused bodily harm. The cover also depicts people running away from Superman in terror, as he's about to smash a car into a wall.

Then there's this gem of a quote.

There is a such thing as being too serious, look at Superman Returns, Daredevil, and The Hulk, all three of those movies barely had a smile in them, and general audiences hated them.

Right, "Incredible Hulk" was so much more fun and yet it made the same amount of money. "Daredevil" has been dark since the late 70's. It didn't make four hundred million, but it wasn't a complete bomb. Course, it didn't help that it had some bad moments in the film. "Superman Returns" was hampered by a huge budget and the lack of a major fight scene.

Or the fact that he would leave his fortress of solitude defenseless, knowing the tech it holds AND knowing that Lex (of all people) knew its location.

Aside from underestimating that Lex would get out of prison again, there's the fact that the thing is located in a remote location which isn't easily accessible. I guess he could always enlist polar bears to stand guard.

[Tra-EL]

The part where Lex got released due to his absence is always a fan favorite.

Or the fact that he would leave his fortress of solitude defenseless, knowing the tech it holds AND knowing that Lex (of all people) knew its location.

For as intelligent as Superman claims to be and the references of that, he was a dolt in Superman Returns. "How bad do you think that pisses off Superman?" "ALOT." Not only that, but Superman was aware that Lex not only knew the location of the Fortress, but was standing inside of it with Superman PRESENT in Superman II. Yet, leaves without thinking anything through and the repercussions and consequences of the American judicial system. Superman Returns wasn't the first time Lex broke into the Fortress either. He did just as easily with Miss Teschmacher in Superman: The Movie.

With the emergence of Zod, Ursa and Non in Superman II, the thoughts of Krypton should have been handled then, not "scientific reports" of Krypton existing after the fact. Just too many miss's in Singers story. It makes for a so-so sequel with up-to-date technology, but that's where it ends.

[Tra-EL]

He didn't tell Lois because she would tell him not to leave. He knew that which is why he didn't go to her to say goodbye. Martha and NASA did know. Also, Lois wasn't married to Richard. They had been engaged all those years, but never went through with the marriage. And if she was really happy with Richard, Superman wouldn't be her password and she would have done married him.

There comes a major responsibility being Superman and regardless of Lois's reaction, that responsibility should have been handled appropriately to his moral. Superman already tried going through with reversing his powers in Superman II to be with Lois, but he knew being the mortal Clark Kent just to be with Lois Lane couldn't and wouldn't be his destiny. Lois was okay with Superman's purpose and if she truly DID love Superman, even being negligent in theory, I'm sure she would have accepted that fact of Kal going to try to find life on Krypton and supported that.

If ANYTHING, it would give her a sense of comfort and security of KNOWING where he is and promising to return one day rather than just feeling abandoned as if she never even mattered. It just doesn't make sense that Superman kept all of this from Lois thinking what she doesn't know wouldn't hurt her, when it proved to be quite the opposite.

As for the marriage to Richard, that was the wrong choice of words. Nonetheless, an engagement IS an engagement. It represents ones commitment and intimate love for one another. They built that bond, raising "their" child together throughout the years and living under the same roof. Living the life of the sassy reporter that Lois Lane lives, it's easy to believe why such a marriage could be postponed.

Sure she loves Superman at the core, but there was NO reason for her to believe she'd EVER see him again and she moved on like many of us would and loved another man. Superman's abrupt return to Earth expecting Lois to choose him and taking her up in the sky to "woo" her into choosing him once again shows what was wrong in Superman Returns. Hell, he even knew of Richard and it was Lois who pulled back from the kiss on the rooftop with Richard just a few rooms below them. I never bought Singers script.

Nonetheless, I want a Superman movie where I can actually ROOT for Superman....not Cyclops.

[Mat001]

For as intelligent as Superman claims to be and the references of that, he was a dolt in Superman Returns. "How bad do you think that pisses off Superman?" "ALOT." Not only that, but Superman was aware that Lex not only knew the location of the Fortress, but was standing inside of it with Superman PRESENT in Superman II. Yet, leaves without thinking anything through and the repercussions and consequences of the American judicial system. Superman Returns wasn't the first time Lex broke into the Fortress either. He did just as easily with Miss Teschmacher in Superman: The Movie.

Being smart is different from taking the time to think things through.

With the emergence of Zod, Ursa and Non in Superman II, the thoughts of Krypton should have been handled then, not "scientific reports" of Krypton existing after the fact.

Clark knew about the Phantom Zone, that was clear in the history of Krypton Sunstone crystals. That's why he recognized Zod's name the minute he heard the President say it. He knew who they were and where they had been. Clark also knew from Jor-El that the Science Council doubted his theory of Krypton's pending destruction, which raised the possibility that he might have been wrong, but was unable to bring him back home.

There comes a major responsibility being Superman and regardless of Lois's reaction, that responsibility should have been handled appropriately to his moral. Superman already tried going through with reversing his powers in Superman II to be with Lois, but he knew being the mortal Clark Kent just to be with Lois Lane couldn't and wouldn't be his destiny. Lois was okay with Superman's purpose and if she truly DID love Superman, even being negligent in theory, I'm sure she would have accepted that fact of Kal going to try to find life on Krypton and supported that.

That's the problem. He's not a mind reader. He doesn't know for certain what she would say. And given that this was shortly after that relationship had ended, he was weighing that heavily.

If ANYTHING, it would give her a sense of comfort and security of KNOWING where he is and promising to return one day rather than just feeling abandoned as if she never even mattered. It just doesn't make sense that Superman kept all of this from Lois thinking what she doesn't know wouldn't hurt her, when it proved to be quite the opposite.

People make mistakes. We all do. Even Superman.

As for the marriage to Richard, that was the wrong choice of words. Nonetheless, an engagement IS an engagement. It represents ones commitment and intimate love for one another. They built that bond, raising "their" child together throughout the years and living under the same roof. Living the life of the sassy reporter that Lois Lane lives, it's easy to believe why such a marriage could be postponed.

Except it wasn't. She was still in love with Superman. It had nothing to do with living the life of a reporter and everything to do with where her heart truly belonged.

Sure she loves Superman at the core, but there was NO reason for her to believe she'd EVER see him again and she moved on like many of us would and loved another man.

Then they would have gotten married. Jimmy figured that out which is why he brought it up to Clark, not knowing that he was also talking to Superman. Even Richard could see it which is why he asked Lois if she was in love with him, when the password turned out to be Superman and why he sent her on ahead to see him, while he was in the hospital.

Superman's abrupt return to Earth expecting Lois to choose him

He wasn't expecting it to be like it was in the second film. He was expecting things to be as they were when they first met.

and taking her up in the sky to "woo" her into choosing him once again shows what was wrong in Superman Returns. Hell, he even knew of Richard and it was Lois who pulled back from the kiss on the rooftop with Richard just a few rooms below them. I never bought Singers script.

He wasn't trying to woo her. He took her up into the sky to show her what he sees and hears every day. He was making a point about why the world needs him, which is why she had mixed feelings about accepting the Pulitzer that she had long wanted, because now she understood the burden of being Superman. The near kiss afterwards was a reflex on both their parts and a sign that even she still had feelings for him.

[Namtab]

EVERYTHING about that setup in the first place was ODD. Not only did Superman KNOW he nutted in her, but he basically erased Lois's mind (Silver-Age, anyone?) knowing the chances and potentials of her being pregnant and the risks involved in the art of sex and just leaves. On top of that, he never even thought to tell ANYBODY about it beforehand, was gone for 5 years, comes back and expects to step right in between a good man and his marriage (one who took care of his little one in the first place and was THEE father figure to little Jason.) Superman moped about being involved in this non-moral attitude, spying on Lois and actually feeling compelled to feel sad about his luck for all the 2 minutes he was back on Earth without even considering the fact of what could happen in a measly year without him, let alone FIVE. Shit, Richard White was more heroic in many ways in Superman Returns than Superman was. I have a soft spot for SR because I DO like some elements from the Donnerverse, but I love it even MORE (now) because it's the stepping stone to the reboot in Man of Steel.

Thanks for making laugh my ass off at work.

[Tra-EL]

Except it wasn't. She was still in love with Superman. It had nothing to do with living the life of a reporter and everything to do with where her heart truly belonged.

There's pretty much a justification to the entire story, but in the end, it's one big contradiction. Though she was still in love with Superman (and even though Superman will always love Lois) this issue played out in Superman II where Clark came to terms that him and Lois Lane just wouldn't and couldn't work. It's not his destiny. The world needs Superman more-so than Lois Lane needs Clark Kent as a life long partner.

Superman basically had a choice and even went through with being the mortal Clark Kent, only realizing it was all a mistake to the point where he reversed his DNA back to being Kryptonian.

His clear choice was to give the people of tomorrow hope of him serving as Superman to been their sole protector and guardian (Jor-EL's reasoning for sending him to Planet Earth to begin with.)

As you said, he knew of his destiny through the Sun-stone Crystals and the history Jor-EL laid out in the Fortress. He knew where Zod came from. Knew of the Phantom Zone. He knew of Jor-EL and the history of Krypton being no more, yet, he feels the need to run after something that simply isn't there, leaving behind all he knows and the woman he loves because of scientific observations.

He should have taken care of this and thought twice knowing Zod was on Earth to begin with (instead, he's having candlelight dinner in the arctic.) As powerful as the Phantom Zone was, that was the time to question his fathers word that Krypton could exist, not scientific reportings from Earthlings.

Regardless, going back to my original point, the contradiction occurs when Superman CLEARLY made the choice to be Earth's champion and not to live a full life with Lois Lane. He erased Lois's mind knowing this with the understanding of such things couldn't work with him reigning as Superman.

Yet, he comes back from the ruins of Krypton (5 years later) and expects Lois to lure away her relationship with Richard White (the mortal he declined to be) expecting them to pick up where they left off, romantically, when his initial decision in Superman II was to keep Lois's mind away from a romance.

Yet, he comes back deep in sorrow that Lois moved on? He's the one who moved on in the first place without even telling her, erasing her thoughts in the process. Closure should of been considered for Lois to move on the right way.


All in all, I get it was a story to continue with the Donner-verse and Singers obsession with continuing the story to pay homage. It's also a reason why it's an outdated story and how the reboot was MORE than necessary. There was nowhere left to go with the Reeve-era.

[Mat001]

There's pretty much a justification to the entire story, but in the end, it's one big contradiction. Though she was still in love with Superman (and even though Superman will always love Lois) this issue played out in Superman II where Clark came to terms that him and Lois Lane just wouldn't and couldn't work. It's not his destiny. The world needs Superman more-so than Lois Lane needs Clark Kent as a life long partner.

Right, but that doesn't change who you fall in love with. You cannot just turn it off and on like a light switch. That's why Clark had to do what he did in "Superman II", to spare her the pain of trying to have some semblance of a relationship with a man that she loved, but could never be with. By taking it back to the status quo, at the very least, he could spare her the pain and she would be fine.

Superman basically had a choice and even went through with being the mortal Clark Kent, only realizing it was all a mistake to the point where he reversed his DNA back to being Kryptonian.

Which doesn't change Lois's feelings. This was evident in the third and fourth films, long before Singer came into the picture.

His clear choice was to give the people of tomorrow hope of him serving as Superman to been their sole protector and guardian (Jor-EL's reasoning for sending him to Planet Earth to begin with.)

As you said, he knew of his destiny through the Sun-stone Crystals and the history Jor-EL laid out in the Fortress. He knew where Zod came from. Knew of the Phantom Zone. He knew of Jor-EL and the history of Krypton being no more, yet, he feels the need to run after something that simply isn't there, leaving behind all he knows and the woman he loves because of scientific observations.

He knew only what Jor-El recorded before Krypton's demise, which Clark did not witness because he was a baby. There was the slightest possibility that Jor-El could be wrong and thus he wanted to know for certain.

He should have taken care of this and thought twice knowing Zod was on Earth to begin with (instead, he's having candlelight dinner in the arctic.) As powerful as the Phantom Zone was, that was the time to question his fathers word that Krypton could exist, not scientific reportings from Earthlings.

Clark didn't know that Zod was there, because he had no way of knowing that his disposing of a nuclear weapon in space, would occur at the exact same moment that Phantom Zone prism was in the solar system. They didn't start to make their move until Clark was in the Fortress and had opted to tune out the rest of the world. He isn't going to question the fate of Krypton then, because he knew all about the Phantom Zone being launched in space prior to the destruction of the planet.

Regardless, going back to my original point, the contradiction occurs when Superman CLEARLY made the choice to be Earth's champion and not to live a full life with Lois Lane. He erased Lois's mind knowing this with the understanding of such things couldn't work with him reigning as Superman.

Yet, he comes back from the ruins of Krypton (5 years later) and expects Lois to lure away her relationship with Richard White (the mortal he declined to be) expecting them to pick up where they left off, romantically, when his initial decision in Superman II was to keep Lois's mind away from a romance.

No, he was expecting things to be as they were before that whole ordeal. With Lois pining for Superman and giving Clark a hard time. That was how he left things five years earlier.

Yet, he comes back deep in sorrow that Lois moved on? He's the one who moved on in the first place without even telling her, erasing her thoughts in the process. Closure should of been considered for Lois to move on the right way.

No, he comes back depressed from the knowledge that he was wrong. That Krypton was gone and now he was truly alone. He came back trying to return to his old life and was surprised that Lois was in a different situation. Again, you cannot turn off emotional feelings so easily. And no, he did not move on.

All in all, I get it was a story to continue with the Donner-verse and Singers obsession with continuing the story to pay homage. It's also a reason why it's an outdated story and how the reboot was MORE than necessary. There was nowhere left to go with the Reeve-era.

There was plenty of places to go. Singer had a story that would feature Brainiac and a battle over Jason. Warner Brothers only opted to reboot because "The Dark Knight" made a shit ton of money and they want to try and milk that for all it's worth.

[NiKva]

I didn't like The Dark Knight Rises. Hopefully Nolan doesn't make the same mistakes when making this movie.

[Mat001]

Nolan isn't directing it.

[Tra-EL]

Which doesn't change Lois's feelings. This was evident in the third and fourth films, long before Singer came into the picture.

True, but this is all being tied into Superman Returns. The 3rd and 4th films simply don't exist in Singers story. I'm not disputing Lois's love for Superman or Superman's love for Lois Lane. Though you can't just turn off emotions and things of that nature because the statuesque to their relationship is they'll ALWAYS love each other no matter the circumstances.

What I'm saying, is though Lois's feelings will never change, Superman was aware of them NEVER working out, made that decision for a reason to be Superman and ONLY Superman, erases Lois's mind knowing she could never know of them being romantically involved but comes back to Earth 5 years later longing for a relationship with a woman he knows he could never be with.

That's just foolish of him to expect such a thing to come back to after being gone for so long with the same woman having NO IDEA why you fled in the first place, which all translates back to Superman not willing to inform her his reasoning's for leaving, because if he had, he could have came back to how things were.

I just never bought the fact of no matter the emotional backlash things may cause, Lois Lane should never know the true situation of his epic journey to outerspace because he simply didn't know how to say goodbye.

No, he comes back depressed from the knowledge that he was wrong. That Krypton was gone and now he was truly alone. He came back trying to return to his old life and was surprised that Lois was in a different situation. Again, you cannot turn off emotional feelings so easily. And no, he did not move on.

I never got the notion of Superman being depressed because of Krypton's demise and him feeling "alone." They only touched on that issue when he was explaining to Ma his adventure of Krypton being a graveyard. Hell, they had an entire opening sequence pulled from the movie with his adventure to Krypton, only to see it no more. That just goes to show that adventuring to Krypton was no more than a side-story only to set up his relationship with Lois.

The main story practically focused around the love story with Lois Lane because he came back to EVERYTHING else before he ventured out to Krypton. He got his job back at the Daily Planet.

Ma Kent is still alive to see his return.

Jimmy Olsen was the first person to welcome him back with open arms.

His first feat in the movie had him land a falling aircraft in the middle of a baseball field and thousands of people cheering on his return. Superman was everywhere. On every news channel helping out as many people as possible.

He was back and pretty damn proud of it. He never felt alone for too long once he was back in Metropolis's eye and the people's voice's were heard loud and clear. All positive.

The only thing missing and when his depression set in, was his relationship with Lois Lane. He reacted more sad and lonely when he snuck over to Lois's pad, x-ray visioning her to death when Richard asked her is she ever loved him. When she said "No", that garnered his depression-like-state more so than the fate of Krypton ever did.

Singer made it a love story more than a heroic one. It was a Jack and Rose story from Titanic evolved into a Superman chick-flick. The entire moodiness of the film was focused around Superman knowing Lois moved on when it should of been obvious to him when he left for 5 years. Lois wouldn't of moved on and found someone like Richard if Supes simply had told her what was going on.

Instead, he just expects to come back to their relationship like not telling someone your leaving for 5 years is no big deal. That's buffoonery and the reason why so many fans are glad the Donnerverse won't be seen or heard from again in modern cinema.

That said, I haven't watched Superman: The Movie or Superman II for years. I'm going to dust them off and give them a spin to focus back on the little details then go re-watch Superman Returns.

There was plenty of places to go. Singer had a story that would feature Brainiac and a battle over Jason. Warner Brothers only opted to reboot because "The Dark Knight" made a shit ton of money and they want to try and milk that for all it's worth.

Though Brainiac is a villain we all want to see, he needs his own introduction in a fresh story, not with a piece of a puzzle to fight over already established. I'll take Brainiac 1 billion times over in any variation of an introduction sequence over fighting for Jason, a highly controversial character ever created in a Superman movie in a Superman Returns sequel.

I'll take my chances with 'MAN OF STEEL" Brainiac in the new rebooted version, whenever that may leap may be.