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  1. #406
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    All I can say is I can't wait to see the Atomic Skull fight Superman! Whoo!!!

  2. #407
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Trying to make Superman relatable is the problem, not the solution. Superman is not supposed to be relatable-Clark Kent is. Real life inspirations for Superman need to be people like MLK and Gandhi. Superman is inspirational, not relatable, when he is handled right. That doesn't mean there aren't things about him that people can relate to-his feelings of loneliness, of isolation, of not fitting in are all things people have felt. Batman is actually a very straightforward character and he doesn't have the complexities and contradictions that Superman has. It's pretty clear that Batman's hard exterior is hiding the fact that he care about the people around them but finds it easier to bark at them than to let them know how he feels. But with Superman, you have a friendly, smiling face that deep down doesn't want his friends to be but so close, because he knows he will one day lose them, like he lost Krypton, like he lost Ma and Pa Kent. Superman is easy to love but hard to know and that makes him fascinating. A lot of the best Superman stories don't even deal with him fighting crime or stopping threats-they deal with the man inside and the pain inside his soul.
    The problem is that readers want to relate to the characters, more than they want to be inspired by them. And even with the Pre-Crisis Superman, they don't see in him what they get out of Batman and Spider-Man. Especially when he's got all these people around him and he's able to deal with them just fine, compared to Batman. People will always see Batman as more inspirational, if that is your thing, because he doesn't need powers to do what he does. He needs the will to act and his own physical strength to get the job done. People can relate to King, who had to fight against social injustice because of the color of his skin. And Gandhi shows what determination can accomplish, the latter of which Batman has in spades.

    There's a few guys and Morrison is one of them, but he is a Batman guy first. Most of the people who really get Superman are not active in the business today-Maggin, Bates, Pasko-or are away from DC like Waid (although he is not in their class). Superman has been lost for so long that I have serious doubts that he can be found.
    How is Morrison a Batman guy first? Because he wrote more Batman comics than Superman? That's like saying Waid is a Flash guy more than Superman. Morrison has been able to write more Batman stories than Superman, because Batman editorial have been more receptive to his ideas than Superman's. It took this long to get Morrison on a main Superman book, than it did for Batman. O"Neil, Tomasi and Marts have been more open to Morrison, than Carlin and Bergenza were. Not to mention higher up in DC editorial.

    My favorite version of Superman is actually the Golden Age version, but it is Byrne's version that is different from the rest, not because of the diminished power level, but because he took the core concept of Superman-that Superman is the main identity and Clark Kent is an act-and eliminated Clark Kent from it, leaving a character that was never much different from one identity to the other. That's the way it is with every other superhero and that is boring. It wasn't being the sole survivor of Krypton that made Superman unique-it was the fact that he had a complete and total alter-ego as Clark that did the trick. If Clark and Superman are the same exact guy in and out of costume, then there is no one the reader can project themselves on and therefore there is no interest. It's why that version was doomed to fail from the start. No Clark=no success. Byrne made some other mistakes but none of them were unprecedented in the character's history and none of them-even having Superman kill in a cowardly manner-hurt like getting rid of the nebbish Clark Kent did. There is a distinct difference between a secret identity like 99.9% of all superhero have (unless their identity is publically known) and an alter ego or "second self" which is a completely different personality. Superman has mental issues just like many people; massive survivor's guilt over Krypton and the Kents, an inability to commit, fear of failure, of losing those he loves, and he has this need to role play as the mild mannered Clark Kent.
    Byrne was using the popular George Reeves interpretation of the character, who didn't need to put on an act, in order to disguise himself. That version was used for six seasons successfully and people bought into it. Just as they did with the radio drama and the animated versions of the time. As you noted, Superman needing a disguise was no longer a factor in the eyes of the public. So it only makes sense to be as normal as possible, thus making Superman the disguise. Besides, the Post Crisis had his own issues that he had to deal with which was different from his earlier counterpart.

  3. #408
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zionite1 View Post
    Thanks.Also explaining Supermans motivation to fight oppression is rather easy to execute- If you have a Clark Kent who is raised up seeing how the people like his parents are oppressed by this organisations you make Clarks goals quite personal.

    People seem to really seem to connect with stories where the hero stands up to an oppressive rule.Spartacus,Starwars etc so I think this is a good way to go with superman.And the cosmic element brings the required epicness to the stories.

    Another thing Superman writers shld learn is to downplay the sci fi Jesus aspect of Superman and play up the Scifi Hercules/Samson aspect instead.The Jesus aspect just makes him look unneccessarily preachy.
    That's actually a pretty good idea. Trying to mix the Golden Age with the Bronze Age, so to speak. I remember someone talking about turning Lex Luthor into some sort of Keizer SŲze figure for the financial world that secretely owns and manipulates many companies and countries to his advantage, making them war each other so he can sell them weapons and use a company he possess to acquires the oil of the country, and that could easily work as the leader of this "evil organisation". A supervillain like version of capitalism turned wrong.
    I'm not so sure about the idea of evil organisations being connected to aliens, though.Or maybe one specific alien force. But Superman could be fighting oppression in alien worlds just as much than in Earth (Mogul, for instance, would be perfect as some Caesar figure using "gladiator fights" to distract his people from the oppression they live under.....just like the Romans did).
    About the Kent being oppressed by the evil forces, it's a good idea, but that should probably used carefully. Otherwise, you get the Kents being murdered by Luthor and that's too Batman like. They could, however, have lost the farm due to the manipulations of the Luthor secret Conglomerate (which was probably the consequence of a bigger plan that didn't concern the Kents directly), which forced them to work in a store until their death (that way, you include the Kent Farm and the Store, Post Crisis/Movie and the Bronze Age).
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  4. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    That's actually a pretty good idea. Trying to mix the Golden Age with the Bronze Age, so to speak. I remember someone talking about turning Lex Luthor into some sort of Keizer SŲze figure for the financial world that secretely owns and manipulates many companies and countries to his advantage, making them war each other so he can sell them weapons and use a company he possess to acquires the oil of the country, and that could easily work as the leader of this "evil organisation". A supervillain like version of capitalism turned wrong.
    I'm not so sure about the idea of evil organisations being connected to aliens, though.Or maybe one specific alien force. But Superman could be fighting oppression in alien worlds just as much than in Earth (Mogul, for instance, would be perfect as some Caesar figure using "gladiator fights" to distract his people from the oppression they live under.....just like the Romans did).
    Well heres My idea for the Organisations-
    The evil Organisation has roots in ancient times and whose influence extends past earth to other worlds.They have various alien species and tech under their control and are responsible for a lot of evil across the galaxy such as the death of Krypton.
    The organisation has a lot of leaders but for the first time they have one head-Lex luthor.Earth is a main priority on their list as they forsee this planet to one day be the headquarters of the universe.All their focus is on shaping the history of this planet experimenting on it altering its future to their will.......
    This is what Superman is fighting.

    Oh and you read my minds concerning Mongul

    About the Kent being oppressed by the evil forces, it's a good idea, but that should probably used carefully. Otherwise, you get the Kents being murdered by Luthor and that's too Batman like. They could, however, have lost the farm due to the manipulations of the Luthor secret Conglomerate (which was probably the consequence of a bigger plan that didn't concern the Kents directly), which forced them to work in a store until their death (that way, you include the Kent Farm and the Store, Post Crisis/Movie and the Bronze Age).
    Bolded is a good piont
    Last edited by Zionite1; 12-27-2012 at 01:33 PM.

  5. #410
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zionite1 View Post
    Well My idea is that the evil Organisation has roots in ancient times and whose influence extends past earth to other worlds.They have various alien species and tech under their control and are responsible for a lot of evil across the galaxy such as the death of Krypton.
    The organisation has a lot of leaders but for the first time they have one head-Lex luthor.Earth is a main priority on their list as they forsee this planet to one day be the headquarters of the universe.All their focus is on shaping the history of this planet experimenting on it altering its future to their will.......
    This is what Superman is fighting.

    Oh and you read my minds concerning Mongul

    Bolded is a good piont
    - Yeah, I'm not sure about involving the death of Krypton into this.
    The thing has a lot of possibility, but there's something that bothers me about having Luthor as the evil ruler of a galactic organisation.
    Maybe we can split the thing in two. On the one hand, we have Luthor, the ultimate self made man, who created a secret conglomerate that manipulates countries and companies alike for his own personnal gain, and to shape the world as he sees fit ( a social darynian philosophy pushed to the extreme?), and on the other hand, you have a galactic organisation with a huge influence on the cosmos, and which is starting to notice Earth's potential, and ruled by another villain (someone new I suppose......unless it's supercomputer Brainiac?). Both organisations would start to notice one another, compete,try to destroy the other, maybe ally at some point to kill Superman (the Luthor/Brainiac team up revisited).
    Maybe they weren't responsible for the death of Krypton per see, but ensure that Jor El wasn't listened by his peers.
    It would actually make a better Earth One than the Earth One we got.
    As for Mongul, well.... it was a natural idea considering the pitch. Perhaps bring some Conan like thing to him, like he conquered his throne by sheer physical force, and as such created a system here only strengh matters (putting him in contrast with Superman, who uses his own strengh to defend the weaks).
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  6. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    - Yeah, I'm not sure about involving the death of Krypton into this.
    The thing has a lot of possibility, but there's something that bothers me about having Luthor as the evil ruler of a galactic organisation.
    Maybe we can split the thing in two. On the one hand, we have Luthor, the ultimate self made man, who created a secret conglomerate that manipulates countries and companies alike for his own personnal gain, and to shape the world as he sees fit ( a social darynian philosophy pushed to the extreme?), and on the other hand, you have a galactic organisation with a huge influence on the cosmos, and which is starting to notice Earth's potential, and ruled by another villain (someone new I suppose......unless it's supercomputer Brainiac?). Both organisations would start to notice one another, compete,try to destroy the other, maybe ally at some point to kill Superman (the Luthor/Brainiac team up revisited).
    Maybe they weren't responsible for the death of Krypton per see, but ensure that Jor El wasn't listened by his peers.
    Personally think that Lex being the ruler of a galactic organisation wont take away from his character-in fact probaly make him more Threatening.Here we have lex- a mere human who has taken over an intergalactic empire which he secretly controls all from planet earth behind the scenes-thats sheer badass. Which is why I didnt want to split the thing in two-have Lex secret conglomerate and the galactic organisation be one and the same..
    .I also think it will be cool if his identity as leader is largely unknown even to people in the organisation. Theyd have a hard time believing that a human controls them all.His reveal as the leader wld be the "I am your father" moment of the saga.Id also introduce Planet lexor as one of the planets Lex controls.

    As for the organisation being responsible for Kryptons destruction I can go either way with it

    It would actually make a better Earth One than the Earth One we got.
    It sure would

    As for Mongul, well.... it was a natural idea considering the pitch. Perhaps bring some Conan like thing to him, like he conquered his throne by sheer physical force, and as such created a system here only strengh matters (putting him in contrast with Superman, who uses his own strengh to defend the weaks).
    This is Brilliant

  7. #412
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zionite1 View Post
    Personally think that Lex being the ruler of a galactic organisation wont take away from his character-in fact probaly make him more Threatening.Here we have lex- a mere human who has taken over an intergalactic empire which he secretly controls all from planet earth behind the scenes-thats sheer badass. Which is why I didnt want to split the thing in two-have Lex secret conglomerate and the galactic organisation be one and the same..
    .I also think it will be cool if his identity as leader is largely unknown even to people in the organisation. Theyd have a hard time believing that a human controls them all.His reveal as the leader wld be the "I am your father" moment of the saga.Id also introduce Planet lexor as one of the planets Lex controls.

    As for the organisation being responsible for Kryptons destruction I can go either way with it


    It sure would


    This is Brilliant
    -Well, I suppose I may have a hard time buying that, in a Earth where mankind isn't even aware of the idea of alien life, Lex not only knows it exists, not only interacted with it, but controlled it. But it's your idea after all.
    But what if Luthor takes control during the saga? Like the story of Luthor's ascencion, from the galactic organisation contacting him because he's "Earth most brilliant mind" (it would be interesting to have this organisation based on intellectual might over the masses) in exhange of power (and his own planet, Lexor?) to him taking control of this millenia based organisation for his own purposes. Wouldn't that be utterly badass?

    -Yep. Ultimate Superman.

    -But the whole idea of his Rogue gallery being based on oppression, and him being the ultimate freedom fighter in the universe, is brilliant. There are so many possibilities with it, them being about control, and him being about freedom. Brainiac captures cities into bottle, before to take care of them as he would take care of insects? Oppression. Mongul being a mix of Caesar and Conan using strengh as a value and a mean of control? Oppression. Luthor as the leader of a secret group manipulating things from the shadows? Oppression. Toyman as a toy like creature capturing children to turn them into toys? Oppression. General Zod as a colonialist like dictator exiled from Krypton before his explosion and dominating a planet of "natives"to turn them into a Krypton look alike? Oppression.
    You really got something here, pal. You can even get some of it in the current version of Superman.
    Last edited by Auguste Dupin; 12-27-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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  8. #413
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zionite1 View Post
    Thanks.Also explaining Supermans motivation to fight oppression is rather easy to execute- If you have a Clark Kent who is raised up seeing how the people like his parents are oppressed by this organisations you make Clarks goals quite personal.

    People seem to really seem to connect with stories where the hero stands up to an oppressive rule.Spartacus,Starwars etc so I think this is a good way to go with superman.And the cosmic element brings the required epicness to the stories.

    Another thing Superman writers shld learn is to downplay the sci fi Jesus aspect of Superman and play up the Scifi Hercules/Samson aspect instead.The Jesus aspect just makes him look unneccessarily preachy.
    I agree with this...they have already started to put this into the nu52 Superman as they added lines to Pa Kent's deathbed concerning him standing up for the common man. And I agree they need to play down the Jesus thing. Superman is a Jewish creation and Raology is basically space Judaism, so him being played up as a parallel to the Christian Messiah is just not appropriate. The Golem comparisons are much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legato View Post
    I could see this as something people can truly get behind. Superman would represent the common everyman while Lex represents the rich and privileged that would walk over the common everyman type. Sort of like a Liberal vs Conservative type of scenario.
    It really really would work, plus it could break the image of Superman as a toad of the establishment that Miller and Byrne cemented in so strongly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    That's actually a pretty good idea. Trying to mix the Golden Age with the Bronze Age, so to speak. I remember someone talking about turning Lex Luthor into some sort of Keizer SŲze figure for the financial world that secretely owns and manipulates many companies and countries to his advantage, making them war each other so he can sell them weapons and use a company he possess to acquires the oil of the country, and that could easily work as the leader of this "evil organisation". A supervillain like version of capitalism turned wrong.
    I'm not so sure about the idea of evil organisations being connected to aliens, though.Or maybe one specific alien force. But Superman could be fighting oppression in alien worlds just as much than in Earth (Mogul, for instance, would be perfect as some Caesar figure using "gladiator fights" to distract his people from the oppression they live under.....just like the Romans did).
    About the Kent being oppressed by the evil forces, it's a good idea, but that should probably used carefully. Otherwise, you get the Kents being murdered by Luthor and that's too Batman like. They could, however, have lost the farm due to the manipulations of the Luthor secret Conglomerate (which was probably the consequence of a bigger plan that didn't concern the Kents directly), which forced them to work in a store until their death (that way, you include the Kent Farm and the Store, Post Crisis/Movie and the Bronze Age).
    Good ideas about the Kents-they absolutely should not die violently, either of them, which is a mistake Man of Steel may make with Jonathan.

    Another note-finally saw the trailer for MOS on the big screen before the Hobbit yesterday and I was struck by how little it stood out. Almost every movie preview looked like the same movie, the same muted colors in the films, the same heavy handed pretentiousness, from Star Trek into Darkness to Oblivion to Man of Steel...only Oblivion looked appealing on it's own merits.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  9. #414
    Elder Member zryson's Avatar
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    hi Kurosawa - i have noticed the same with several movies. the muted washed out colors, the same way of filming, etc. It sort of all blurs together after awhile.

  10. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Well, I suppose I may have a hard time buying that, in a Earth where mankind isn't even aware of the idea of alien life, Lex not only knows it exists, not only interacted with it, but controlled it. But it's your idea after all.
    Well in my idea the Government has been aware of alien existence for a long time they just kept it from the public.Lex simply took advantage of it thanks ro his extrodinary Genius.
    But what if Luthor takes control during the saga? Like the story of Luthor's ascencion, from the galactic organisation contacting him because he's "Earth most brilliant mind" (it would be interesting to have this organisation based on intellectual might over the masses) in exhange of power (and his own planet, Lexor?) to him taking control of this millenia based organisation for his own purposes. Wouldn't that be utterly badass?
    Yes it would.Good one

    But the whole idea of his Rogue gallery being based on oppression, and him being the ultimate freedom fighter in the universe, is brilliant. There are so many possibilities with it, them being about control, and him being about freedom. Brainiac captures cities into bottle, before to take care of them as he would take care of insects? Oppression. Mongul being a mix of Caesar and Conan using strengh as a value and a mean of control? Oppression. Luthor as the leader of a secret group manipulating things from the shadows? Oppression. Toyman as a toy like creature capturing children to turn them into toys? Oppression. General Zod as a colonialist like dictator exiled from Krypton before his explosion and dominating a planet of "natives"to turn them into a Krypton look alike? Oppression.
    Wow you really understand where Im goin with this.
    You really got something here, pal. You can even get some of it in the current version of Superman.
    Thanks.Its an idea I had for a Superman series I hope to write one day-I call it "The Legend of Superman".Recently had a boat load of ideas for the series-which cld either translate into an animated show of 4 seasons or comic series of 12 Graphic novels.I really hope to someday write it all for DC/WB one day

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    It really really would work, plus it could break the image of Superman as a toad of the establishment that Miller and Byrne cemented in so strongly.
    ^This.I really HATE the whole Government dog idea(which is why I will never read TDKR) and am more than Glad that the new 52 is staying away from it.
    Last edited by Zionite1; 12-27-2012 at 10:21 PM.

  11. #416
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zryson View Post
    hi Kurosawa - i have noticed the same with several movies. the muted washed out colors, the same way of filming, etc. It sort of all blurs together after awhile.
    It really does. It's great for certain types of movies, and I actually find it attractive. But I don't like for EVERY fantasy movie to look like that and I certainly don't like Superman looking like that. My first concern with Snyder and Nolan as producer was the dark tones of their productions. Unfortunately, they are very much making the movie I expected them to make. I think that the beautiful vivid colors of Avatar were as big a part of it's success as anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zionite1 View Post
    Well in my idea the Government has been aware of alien existence for a long time they just kept it from the public.Lex simply took advantage of it thanks ro his extrodinary Genius.

    Yes it would.Good one



    Wow you really understand where Im goin with this.
    Thanks.Its an idea I had for a Superman series I hope to write one day-I call it "The Legend of Superman".Recently had a boat load of ideas for the series-which cld either translate into an animated show of 4 seasons or comic series of 12 Graphic novels.I really hope to someday write it all for DC/WB one day


    ^This.I really HATE the whole Government dog idea(which is why I will never read TDKR) and am more than Glad that the new 52 is staying away from it.
    You are on to something really interesting here, I wish DC themselves would put 2 + 2 together like you have. I am impressed. I admit for years I've wanted Superman to go back to being the Champion of the Oppressed, but at the same time I have regretted the loss of superheroic action that might bring. Your concept has shown it doesn't have to be either/or. The two can be tied together.

    As for TDKR, I read it when it first came out so I didn't really know what was coming. I was expecting a great, hard hitting crime book like his Daredevil. He didn't repeat himself, which I guess is good, but I've just never seen the appeal of it even if I ignore how Superman is handled in it.
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  12. #417
    Elder Member zryson's Avatar
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    The dark muted colors seem to be what the movie people think audiences want though - it worked well for Nolan's Batman movies. Though when it comes to Superman I don't think dark I think he's a larger than life superhero, the apex of superheroes, so its bright and big and larger than life. But the dark conflicted superheroes is very much in vogue now with the new 52. Will it work with the man of steel? I don't know. It's not a movie I'm really excited for based on the trailer. If anything it confirms my doubts that the actor playing Superman/Clark Kent could be overshadowed by everyone else in the movie.

  13. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by zryson View Post
    The dark muted colors seem to be what the movie people think audiences want though - it worked well for Nolan's Batman movies. Though when it comes to Superman I don't think dark I think he's a larger than life superhero, the apex of superheroes, so its bright and big and larger than life. But the dark conflicted superheroes is very much in vogue now with the new 52.
    Have you read any of the New 52 Superman comics?

  14. #419
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zryson View Post
    The dark muted colors seem to be what the movie people think audiences want though - it worked well for Nolan's Batman movies. Though when it comes to Superman I don't think dark I think he's a larger than life superhero, the apex of superheroes, so its bright and big and larger than life. But the dark conflicted superheroes is very much in vogue now with the new 52. Will it work with the man of steel? I don't know. It's not a movie I'm really excited for based on the trailer. If anything it confirms my doubts that the actor playing Superman/Clark Kent could be overshadowed by everyone else in the movie.
    I'm surprised the huge success of Avatar has not made these people expand their palette.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  15. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by zryson View Post
    Though when it comes to Superman I don't think dark I think he's a larger than life superhero, the apex of superheroes, so its bright and big and larger than life. But the dark conflicted superheroes is very much in vogue now with the new 52. Will it work with the man of steel?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    Have you read any of the New 52 Superman comics?
    Most of them. The color palette is bright and the dark conflicted superhero is largely absent.
    In my opinion is implied in every post. Please make an effort to remember that.

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