Is the Man of Steel Doomed?

[Mat001]

Every live action Batman costume has sucked.

In your opinion. It still doesn't change that for the last twenty three years, none of the live action costumes have had trunks and people still flocked to see those films. A pair of trunks do not make or break a costume.

At the time Batman got his back broken, that was one of the most extreme things we'd seen. And it had shock value precisely because of how rare things that extreme were back then. You had that, Jason's death, and...what else?

Barbara Gordon being shot and paralyzed by the Joker, before being stripped naked and photographed. Then having said photos blown up and shown to her father, in an effort to drive him insane like he himself had been years ago. The KGBeast cutting his left hand off. Abattoir sucking the bones of his dead family members. The Joker slamming his head in the table to demonstrate how twisted he is. The Joker threatening to kill a bunch of newborn babies. Harvey Dent ripping his face up after having plastic surgery to fix it. Selena after being raped. Holly being beaten up by a police captain. Batman throwing mini batarangs at the Joker, with one landing in his right eye. A rape victim hanging herself. Azrael's father being shot up. That was all during the 80's and 90's.

We have discussed this over and over. Superman is fantasy, His world is fantasy. No he doesn't need to be limited to that only but really he should be. It's like Superman going to war to stop Hitler in the 40's DC didn't do it to disrespect the troops who were giving their lives for real. It's much easier and more fun IMO to have a real world environment go only so far. After all Superman is meant to be fun and not taken to serious just like any Comic Book Super Hero.

Donner understood that if you didn't have a sense of realism in how the characters act and behave, then what you have is not a serious attempt at a film. That's why his work was so praised. The only difference is that he didn't go far enough, whereas Goyer, Nolan and Snyder are willing to go there.

[stk]

Never read the story where Superman captures Hitler and Staline and brings them to the Society of Nations?

You mean the imaginary tale which wasn't published in the monthly comics and wasn't part of continuity? And sometimes things appeared on the covers which had no relation to anything within the issue.

And just because real life figures have been used, that doesn't mean the stories aren't fantasy. I love that you use Mohammad Ali vs. Superman as an example of not being a fantasy world. Have you read it?

[Auguste Dupin]

You mean the imaginary tale which wasn't published in the monthly comics and wasn't part of continuity? And sometimes things appeared on the covers which had no relation to anything within the issue.

And just because real life figures have been used, that doesn't mean the stories aren't fantasy. I love that you use Mohammad Ali vs. Superman as an example of not being a fantasy world. Have you read it?

Yep. Ali won the fight, but it was all a ploy, and he deduces Superman is Clark Kent. And there were aliens.
What you guys don't get is that, on a narrative perspective, the world isn't different before Superman appears. It's not Oz. it's not Middle Earth. It's our world. It had the Hollocaust, the slaughter of the Amerindians, the assassination of Kennedy....
If Superman's world is lighter and more fun than ours, it's because of his influence. Meteors don't start falling on Earth every week until he is there to stop them. Alien monsters don't stop by all the time until he is there to beat them up.
The stories are fantasies, the setting is not.

[Lexrules]

Never read the story where Superman captures Hitler and Staline and brings them to the Society of Nations?
Superman was fighting the nazis. All the superheros did, even Batman (although to a lesser extend). Check on Google and see the "slap a jap" cover, or all the covers where he throws bombs at nazis boats.
His world isn't fantasy at all. If it was, he wouldn't have met Kennedy, or Reagan, or Mohammad Ali. How can a world be a fantasy when even the presidents are the real ones?
The problem the you guys is that you all act as if Superman has always been the way he was when you were reading him as a kid (and even when you were reading it......"Superman's secret mission for Kennedy"). Except he hasn't.

That was only done once and was late in the War and was only a 2 page story because DC did not want to receive backlash. I was never a fan of bringing in real life people into the books. Seeing people like Kennedy (the same month he was Killed), Reagan in Legends and even Ali while good stories for the most part always bothered me to no end. I really feel that real world people and events should not cross into the books. You could take ques from them but not actual people, places or events. Part of the reason you never saw a Superman at 9/11 story. It's just disrespectful because there is no Superman in real life and never will be.

[Lexrules]

In your opinion. It still doesn't change that for the last twenty three years, none of the live action costumes have had trunks and people still flocked to see those films. A pair of trunks do not make or break a costume.



Barbara Gordon being shot and paralyzed by the Joker, before being stripped naked and photographed. Then having said photos blown up and shown to her father, in an effort to drive him insane like he himself had been years ago. The KGBeast cutting his left hand off. Abattoir sucking the bones of his dead family members. The Joker slamming his head in the table to demonstrate how twisted he is. The Joker threatening to kill a bunch of newborn babies. Harvey Dent ripping his face up after having plastic surgery to fix it. Selena after being raped. Holly being beaten up by a police captain. Batman throwing mini batarangs at the Joker, with one landing in his right eye. A rape victim hanging herself. Azrael's father being shot up. That was all during the 80's and 90's.



Donner understood that if you didn't have a sense of realism in how the characters act and behave, then what you have is not a serious attempt at a film. That's why his work was so praised. The only difference is that he didn't go far enough, whereas Goyer, Nolan and Snyder are willing to go there.

Well Donner knew not to go to realistic. It is Superman after all, nothing realistic about it. You could make a well acted, serious movie without making to much real world things happen. New York was Metropolis, Lex was Funny for a reason because you shouldn't go to realistic with a story like Superman. You could play it straight but in the end its still fantasy and made for fun and Enjoyment.

[Auguste Dupin]

That was only done once and was late in the War and was only a 2 page story because DC did not want to receive backlash. I was never a fan of bringing in real life people into the books. Seeing people like Kennedy (the same month he was Killed), Reagan in Legends and even Ali while good stories for the most part always bothered me to no end. I really feel that real world people and events should not cross into the books. You could take ques from them but not actual people, places or events. Part of the reason you never saw a Superman at 9/11 story. It's just disrespectful because there is no Superman in real life and never will be.

I can understand that, but fact is.....they did. That means putting the real world into the Superman book (and other books) has always been done, even when you were a kid. So saying it's not right for the Superman movie to include reality when even the books do doesn't.....feel right to me. Especially considering that, well, it's a movie, a variation, a spin off of the main thing. if you don't like the idea.....I don't know, just act as if it was an Elseworld or a What if. That's pretty much what this is anyway.

[Auguste Dupin]

Well Donner knew not to go to realistic. It is Superman after all, nothing realistic about it. You could make a well acted, serious movie without making to much real world things happen. New York was Metropolis, Lex was Funny for a reason because you shouldn't go to realistic with a story like Superman. You could play it straight but in the end its still fantasy and made for fun and Enjoyment.

Heh, you really should, if you have the opportunity, buy the DVD of Superman 2's Donner Cut, watch it, then listen to his commentary. It might shake afew beliefs you had on what Donner was trying to do.
Realism doesn't mean "no fun" after all. Reality can be very funny.

[Lexrules]

Heh, you really should, if you have the opportunity, buy the DVD of Superman 2's Donner Cut, watch it, then listen to his commentary. It might shake afew beliefs you had on what Donner was trying to do.
Realism doesn't mean "no fun" after all. Reality can be very funny.

Oh I have it and have watched many times. Donner knew where to draw the line. What makes him a great director. Superman could exist in a real world environment but I really feel that current events should not be involved or at least be changed to suit the environment Superman lives in. Case in point God forbid if there is a major earth quack in LA today, if you want to add it to the book then change it to Coast City. You could have events that have happened in our history like WW2 and Vietnam but I feel you need to give it time before bringing them in. It will never happen but that's how I feel.

[LunarMoon]

We have discussed this over and over. Superman is fantasy, His world is fantasy. No he doesn't need to be limited to that only but really he should be. It's like Superman going to war to stop Hitler in the 40's DC didn't do it to disrespect the troops who were giving their lives for real. It's much easier and more fun IMO to have a real world environment go only so far. After all Superman is meant to be fun and not taken to serious just like any Comic Book Super Hero.

Red Son, For the Man Who Has Everything, Secret Identity, Project Superman, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, Infinite Crisis, and The Death of Superman are all serious, dark Superman stories. The lighthearted interpretation of Superman's world, that you keep bringing up, hasn't really existed for some 30 years at minimum. The Bronze Age made sure of that. Also, Knightfall was always weak sauce; Batman reached its darkest during the 80s, with stuff like Year One (Selina's prostitute backstory) and The Dark Knight Returns (had the Joker murder a troupe of Cub Scouts).

Likewise, the U.S. government's antagonism and distrust towards Superman has been the status quo since The Dark Knight Returns, but really started becoming prominent with the introduction of Amanda Waller during the late 80s. Superman: Birthright, Morrison's current Action Comics Run, and Justice League Unlimited's Cadmus Arc were all very big on this.

[Auguste Dupin]

Oh I have it and have watched many times. Donner knew where to draw the line. What makes him a great director. Superman could exist in a real world environment but I really feel that current events should not be involved or at least be changed to suit the environment Superman lives in. Case in point God forbid if there is a major earth quack in LA today, if you want to add it to the book then change it to Coast City. You could have events that have happened in our history like WW2 and Vietnam but I feel you need to give it time before bringing them in. It will never happen but that's how I feel.

Yeah, but there's also been an implied rule that everything that happened before him happened. For instance, 9/11 didn't happen Pre Flashpoint, because that would have raised the question of where was Superman. But here, it probably did, just like the death of Lincoln happened in the Superman from the 50's. Because in both cases, since it was before the rise of superheroes, there is no problematic implications anymore.
And I suppose that's what they are aiming. The world is "realistic" because Superman hasn't arrived yet. When the government sees him, it doesn't see Superman, but an omnipotent alien that could dominate earth in a big week. But Superman will try to make the world a better place, and probably succeed to some extend.

[Lexrules]

Red Son, For the Man Who Has Everything, Secret Identity, Project Superman, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, Infinite Crisis, and The Death of Superman are all serious, dark Superman stories. The lighthearted interpretation of Superman's world, that you keep bringing up, hasn't really existed for some 30 years at minimum. The Bronze Age made sure of that. Also, Knightfall was always weak sauce; Batman reached its darkest during the 80s, with stuff like Year One (Selina's prostitute backstory) and The Dark Knight Returns (had the Joker murder a troupe of Cub Scouts).

Likewise, the U.S. government's antagonism and distrust towards Superman has been the status quo since The Dark Knight Returns, but really started becoming prominent with the introduction of Amanda Waller during the late 80s. Superman: Birthright, Morrison's current Action Comics Run, and Justice League Unlimited's Cadmus Arc were all very big on this.

Why I like my comics from the 70's and earlier more then anything. Don't get me started with Dark Knight Returns. The worst thing IMO to happen to both Superman and Batman for that matter but that's another story. I am not saying there can't be real world things in Superman just the places and events should be changed to match Superman's world. Comics for better or worse lives in real world thinking now and has slowing been doing so since the mid 80's. I've had the same grip since then so really it's just me bitching out loud about how I feel things should be but of course will never be again. So we move on.

[stk]

It's not Oz. it's not Middle Earth.

sigh. That's not what people mean by fantasy world.

[Auguste Dupin]

sigh. That's not what people mean by fantasy world.

So? What exactly is different from "our" world before Superman's arrival?
There's one more New York City expy on the map?
I'm sorry man but it's not my fault if WWII also happened in Superman's world, if the Cold War happend, and if virtually everything that did happen in our world happened in his too.
So yeah, a Superman reboot in 2013 is going to happen in post 9/11 world where people aren't going to immediately trust the overpowered alien. Just like Superman started in a pre WWII post 1929 world where Superman was dealing with social issues.
You all like as if Superman living in a "realistic" world is anything new, while it really isn't. You just refuse to see beyond "when I was a kid".

[stk]

You just refuse to see beyond "when I was a kid".

You really love to project. That and sweeping generalizations. Do you ever find your omnipotent telepathic powers to be a burden?

[Auguste Dupin]

You really love to project. That and sweeping generalizations. Do you ever find your omnipotent telepathic powers to be a burden?

A bit, but that's always the problem when you're as awesome as I am.