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  1. #61
    Senior Member Batman9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonemachine View Post
    I completely agree. To say that you have no interest in V for Vendetta is basically saying you have no interest in anything that is going on in the world today or anything that went on in the history of both the countries of USA and Great Britain.
    Who said that?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh straightedge View Post
    Preacher is the most I have ever enjoyed a book. That's taking into account Sandman, Watchmen, Swamp Thing....anything. It's my favorite thing in comics. I recently re-read the entire thing and still enjoyed it so much. At different points, I felt like I switched favorite characters, just because of how great so many characters are. I love the ending. Not what I would have expected at all.
    I'm 100% with you on this, and coincidentally I'm 100% opposite of straightedge, hehe. It just goes to show how so many different people from so many different backgrounds with so many different values and personal beliefs can all enjoy Preacher because it is that universally, objectively great. It's a true masterpiece by all accounts, entertainment (and art) in the purest forms.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman9 View Post
    Who said that?
    InformationGeek

    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    V for Vendetta: I can get my hands on this comic if I want to from my local library, but I don't think the plot sounds interesting to me at all.

  4. #64

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    Reading some of the comments reminded me of how I used to get my back up and stay away from things that people recommended (or that I felt was recommended by snooty elitist people). But after a while I thought, “You know, your just doing yourself a disservice.” I avoided Russian lit for this reason, but when I finally told myself to get over myself and try it… I loved it. "Brother’s Karamazov" for example, became my all time favorite novel, and it wasn’t inaccessible or snooty in the least.

    Since then I’ve tried many things -including comics- that came highly recommended. And while some of it wasn’t my cup o’ tea (Invincible), and there are writers I didn't care for and now shy away from (Ennis) --- there are also just as many that I came to enjoy, many writers I discovered and now read voraciously. Being stubborn didn’t hurt anyone but myself, so I’m done with that game -- and because of that I’ve sampled and enjoyed books like - “I, Vampire”, “JIM”, “The Sixth Gun”, “I Kill Giants”, “Transmetropolitan” and many others where people told me... “You gotta read this!” And I did!

    Nothing's guaranteed, but I'll give it a go if it's recommended, especially if the recomendee can articulate it's strengths (which I can then gauge against my own general likes and dislikes)
    PrettyDeadly/WonderWoman/FBP/Velvet/Revival/Lazarus/EastofWest/ManhattanProjects/Fatale/Alex+Ada/Rat Queens/Saga/Bandette/HighCrimes/Red Sonja/RachelRising/Ghost/Zero/Veil/Cap. Marvel/She Hulk/Magneto

  5. #65
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    The "required reading" description (at least to me) isn't saying "Omg this is the greatest thing ever, you have to read it, and if you don't like it you're crazy." I don't really like Watchmen that much, but yeah I think it's something superhero fans should read, just because it's so important and influential on what came afterwards. Watchmen is something I found challenging to my own notions of superheroes, which is why I think it's important to read.

  6. #66

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    I’d be curious to know, of those who don’t like Watchmen, how many were younger, and came to it later – and how many where there when it was published?

    I think the time and place, where we were as an fans and where the industry was as a whole, is also something to consider.

    Alan Moore was certainly a game changer. I remember the buzz he was generating, how he was blowing the door off the place. He was operating on a whole different level. We’d never experiences something like him, at least not from the mainstream publishers. I’ve read complaints on how he and Watchmen had a negative impact on the industry, but that’s not so much the fault of Moore, but of an unimaginative industry and the less talented imitators who had no understanding of the subtext Alan had infused Watchmen with.

    As Neil Gaiman said, there’s what a story is about, and what a story really is about. If you don’t understand that, then all the imitators do is offer violent empty suits. Pretty to look at with grim pretty powers, but stripped of any weight or depth.
    PrettyDeadly/WonderWoman/FBP/Velvet/Revival/Lazarus/EastofWest/ManhattanProjects/Fatale/Alex+Ada/Rat Queens/Saga/Bandette/HighCrimes/Red Sonja/RachelRising/Ghost/Zero/Veil/Cap. Marvel/She Hulk/Magneto

  7. #67
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonemachine View Post
    I completely agree. To say that you have no interest in V for Vendetta is basically saying you have no interest in anything that is going on in the world today or anything that went on in the history of both the countries of USA and Great Britain.
    not sure if serious...
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    The whole "must read" thing comes off as pretentious. I don't wanna read some boring comic just because everyone else seemingly agrees with its quality.
    qft. Comic fans. Almost ironic how smug they can be, right?

    That being said, I agree it does come off as pretentious, but also believe innovative or influential works should at least be considered to be given a shot by all comic fans. Just as a way to expand their own appreciation of their hobby.

    That being said, here are major (DC/Vertigo) works I haven't read:

    Sandman
    Swamp Thing by Moore
    Doom Patrol by Morrison
    The Invisibles
    The Authority

    edit:
    but to further touch on what you were saying, Kuwanger, I really have little interest in reading any of those, save Doom Patrol and Sandman. So yeah. Screw what others say I should read.
    Last edited by Dr. Cheesesteak; 11-30-2012 at 01:19 AM.
    Comics were happier before the Internet turned writing superhero stories into fruitless attempts to impress/entertain a small group of ppl who appear to hate comics and their creators.
    Grant Morrison

  8. #68
    Senior Member Robotman4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonemachine View Post
    One of the many great things about Sandman is that it's in most libraries. Reading it for free was how I got into graphic novels and then shortly after the new 52 started so for me that was the jumping off point.

    Neil Gaimen = Mark Twain + Kurt Cobain + William Shakespeare + Thom Yorke.
    hah! i like that comparison. especially adding thom yorke to your list of greats.

    ok, embarrassed to say ive never read Starman. (jumps out the window)

  9. #69
    Senior Member jackdaw53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selinafan View Post
    I’d be curious to know, of those who don’t like Watchmen, how many were younger, and came to it later – and how many where there when it was published?

    I think the time and place, where we were as an fans and where the industry was as a whole, is also something to consider.

    Alan Moore was certainly a game changer. I remember the buzz he was generating, how he was blowing the door off the place. He was operating on a whole different level. We’d never experiences something like him, at least not from the mainstream publishers. I’ve read complaints on how he and Watchmen had a negative impact on the industry, but that’s not so much the fault of Moore, but of an unimaginative industry and the less talented imitators who had no understanding of the subtext Alan had infused Watchmen with.

    As Neil Gaiman said, there’s what a story is about, and what a story really is about. If you don’t understand that, then all the imitators do is offer violent empty suits. Pretty to look at with grim pretty powers, but stripped of any weight or depth.
    Yes. There's a lot to what you say.

    Go back to the time when Alan Moore started his run on Swamp Thing. He wasn't a big name in America then, and Swamp Thing was on emergency support, close to being cancelled. He turned Swamp Thing round, created John Constantine, etc not because of "hype". No he turned it round because of the skill of his writing, and the force of his imagination.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selinafan View Post
    Iíd be curious to know, of those who donít like Watchmen, how many were younger, and came to it later Ė and how many where there when it was published?

    I think the time and place, where we were as an fans and where the industry was as a whole, is also something to consider.

    Alan Moore was certainly a game changer. I remember the buzz he was generating, how he was blowing the door off the place. He was operating on a whole different level. Weíd never experiences something like him, at least not from the mainstream publishers. Iíve read complaints on how he and Watchmen had a negative impact on the industry, but thatís not so much the fault of Moore, but of an unimaginative industry and the less talented imitators who had no understanding of the subtext Alan had infused Watchmen with.

    As Neil Gaiman said, thereís what a story is about, and what a story really is about. If you donít understand that, then all the imitators do is offer violent empty suits. Pretty to look at with grim pretty powers, but stripped of any weight or depth.
    I thoroughly endorse this post. That was an amazing time to be a comics fan, particularly a British comics fan since so many talented people were finally coming into their own and starting to change the way people looked at comics and, indeed, to change the way the industry itself thought about them, and of course, a lot of those people then broke into the American market on the heels of Moore and Bolland. Moore was a huge part of that sea change, which at the time I think a lot of us were really excited about and getting optimistic about the future of comics as a result of, though there were many others doing their part, too. And for a time, it really seemed that spirit of optimism was well founded, particularly with the creation of lines like Epic and Vertigo in the US and groundbreaking books like Warrior and later Crisis in the UK. Sadly, far too much of it died a premature death or slowly lost direction and faded away, and yes, a lot of creators misunderstood what people like Moore and Frank Miller were doing and set us on the path to a seemingly endless barrage of depressing and mediocre attempts to copy their style without seeing the point of it. There are still enough people creating great things to make me hopeful for the future of comics, but I really wish I could recapture that wild spirit of enthusiasm I had back in about 1983...

  11. #71
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    As much as I love Watchmen, I would guess people who read it when it was coming out or shortly after probably found it to be even more awesome. I can see the story be a lot more meaninfull to someone who lived through the Cold War.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    As much as I love Watchmen, I would guess people who read it when it was coming out or shortly after probably found it to be even more awesome. I can see the story be a lot more meaninfull to someone who lived through the Cold War.
    Same with V for Vendetta. It was written against the backdrop of Thatcher's Britain at a time when there was real unrest in the country, and it was basically Moore positing anarchy as the answer to a corrupt system. That idea was very much a product of its time, and got somewhat lost in translation over the years until the eventual movie adaptation, good though it was as a movie, basically missed the point completely. A horde of people in identical Guy Fawkes masks, great visual though it is, runs somewhat contrary to the idea of individualism which the original series was championing.

  13. #73
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    Hahaha, let's see....

    ANY Neil Gaiman
    Doom Patrol
    Preacher
    V for Vendetta
    The Authority
    The Invisibles
    The Filth
    Animal Man

    never finished Watchmen...

    ....actually, I've read basically nothing from Moore. I hate hype, and his work is THE lightning rod for it. Same with Sandman I get this "serious business" vibe and stay away. Comics like Promethea do interest me for one reason or another, but I'll get around to them when I do. The whole "must read" thing comes off as pretentious. I don't wanna read some boring comic just because everyone else seemingly agrees with its quality.
    My opinion is that you're better off staying away from almost all of that stuff. Most of what is wrong with comics today is right there in that list of mostly overhyped and destructive gunk. (But no Frank Miller?) But if you ever want to read any of it I'd say the Morrison material is better than the rest. I did manage to choke down Watchmen, but I never read V for Vendetta or really any Moore after that.

    I tried to read Sandman twice. I started picking up the book on the stands, but stopped after reading the Element Girl story; I thought that was a hell of a way to torment and kill a Silver Age character meant for better things. I then tried to read the stuff in trade paperback, but ran into the diner sequence and had no stomach to continue. I got no pleasure out of the experience, and won't continue because somebody tells me I must. I've read some other bits that were better, but was by no means so entranced by them to actually seek out and read the entire series.

    As to stuff that actually has artistic merit that I've never gotten around to reading, I probably ought to read more Carl Barks. I probably also ought to complete my Al Capp collection, and get the rest of Music for Mechanics as well. I ought to read Parker and Beck's Captain Marvel, but that material is rather expensive or hard to find.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    My opinion is that you're better off staying away from almost all of that stuff. Most of what is wrong with comics today is right there in that list of mostly overhyped and destructive gunk. (But no Frank Miller?) But if you ever want to read any of it I'd say the Morrison material is better than the rest. I did manage to choke down Watchmen, but I never read V for Vendetta or really any Moore after that.

    I tried to read Sandman twice. I started picking up the book on the stands, but stopped after reading the Element Girl story; I thought that was a hell of a way to torment and kill a Silver Age character meant for better things. I then tried to read the stuff in trade paperback, but ran into the diner sequence and had no stomach to continue. I got no pleasure out of the experience, and won't continue because somebody tells me I must. I've read some other bits that were better, but was by no means so entranced by them to actually seek out and read the entire series.

    As to stuff that actually has artistic merit that I've never gotten around to reading, I probably ought to read more Carl Barks. I probably also ought to complete my Al Capp collection, and get the rest of Music for Mechanics as well. I ought to read Parker and Beck's Captain Marvel, but that material is rather expensive or hard to find.
    So basically, comics should never be anything other than lightweight, lighthearted entertainment for kids? Thankfully I think yours is the minority opinion.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    Well, I think whether you end up liking it or not, Watchmen is still something every person who likes Western comics should read.

    And, hm. I haven't finished reading Moore's Swamp Thing, I haven't read Flex Mentallo, I haven't read Planetary, I haven't finished reading 100 Bullets, I haven't finished reading Hellblazer...well, there's a lot. I only got into comics a couple years ago.
    You must read Planetary. Your comic reading experience is not complete without having read it. I would recommend reading all of 100 Bullets at one time. I read it as it came out but stopped at about #70, although I kept buying it. When #100 came out, I decided to start at #1 again and go straight through and am thankful that I did so. All the jigsaw pieces make much more sense that way. I totally agree with you about Watchmen. It is required reading for comic fans, even if you have seen the movie.

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