New Avengers #34 *Spoilers*

[vitruvian]

I've always considered Strange much more sarcastic than Wong.

Strange has wit and sarcasm, too, but it's much, much drier and less laden with pop culture references. In universe, a lot of folks probably only realize they've been zinged a couple of minutes later, and by that point Dormammu's shadow demons or Darkhold-hunting vampires or whatever are keeping everybody too busy to take offense... or if it's the Big Bad he's subtly insulted, said Big Bad has already decided it's time to do him in anyway.

[vitruvian]

Most times an Avengers book is all about the epic nature of the struggle, and you forget you're dealing with human components here. Making the New Avengers brought in that human component and rounded out how it's not just beating Kang in this time or some other. It's about the human nature of the team. Avengers doesn't have that to the same extent. Bendis showed a little of it in Avengers Prime, but the New Avengers showed it in great detail. Between a family, not a team.

Nope. The Avengers has pretty much always been about as much soap opera as epic adventure, going back even to the Lee and Kirby days, albeit ramped up a lot when Roy Thomas took over, and then again with Englehart, and so on. Not always very good soap opera, mind you, and they've rarely been as much of a family as the FF invariably is, but this is by no means an entirely new factor with Bendis.

Really, in order to make such a comparison and have it be valid, you have to actually have some basis of comparison, i.e. read a good chunk of Avengers other than Bendis.

[jackolover]

Of the features that attract me to those works...
Fresher concepts
Better Developed Characters
Character Development that sticks
Smarter Plot and Better Execution of said plots
Progressive Storytelling (or at least a greater tint of it)

and the biggie

Overall better writing.

The comics listed possess at least 4 of the 6 categories. As most of Marvel and DC sink into a personally unappealing formulas, it's the books outside of those doors that keep me reading comics, so I can easily say that they are better than most of what Marvel and DC are doing, especially when those two are running an R & D farm for their IPs.

I suppose I'm biased about Marvel, because I have ridden their soap opera roller coaster far too long for me to taste an opposition one at this stage. The continuity of over 50 years habit is an attraction on a discussive level, whereas the higher quality writing of a Red Sonja or a Lone Ranger may be nice for a couple of years, it then runs out of legs and I threw them out.

[jackolover]

Nope. The Avengers has pretty much always been about as much soap opera as epic adventure, going back even to the Lee and Kirby days, albeit ramped up a lot when Roy Thomas took over, and then again with Englehart, and so on. Not always very good soap opera, mind you, and they've rarely been as much of a family as the FF invariably is, but this is by no means an entirely new factor with Bendis.

Really, in order to make such a comparison and have it be valid, you have to actually have some basis of comparison, i.e. read a good chunk of Avengers other than Bendis.

From the Lee/Kirby, and Roy Thomas I've read, as well as some of the trial of Hank Pym, the difference between what they put out as soap opera and what Bendis does in New Avengers, is like chalk and cheese. The soap opera of yesteryear was more to do with an incident making them an outlaw, or thought balloon of longing and, why doesn't anybody love me. Bendis gives a insight into the mechanics of the social group who have a tribal understanding and huge self protective quality to it. It's hard to convey and it may be just subjective on my part, but Bendis shows a real social interaction, and not a TV social interaction like yesteryear, which is synthetic.

[vitruvian]

I understand that previous versions of the Doctor Strange story showed him using black magic, but Bendis wanted to show how this development occurred in his version.

Sorry, but that makes no sense unless there's been a reboot, since otherwise his version is supposed to be the same character as the previous version.

Strange has in the past, both prior to attaining the title of Sorceror Supreme and in the years since, used black magic multiple times. Therefore, he does not need to learn that it's okay to do so while retaining the title, he has known it for the long time.

Strange was pure and then he was tainted, Then he learned to use the dark magics and he was fine with it. Previous Strange stories took this all for granted. Bendis wanted to break down this complicated character with all this huge back story, and tell that story his way.

Actually, he started off tainted and corrupt as the arrogant surgeon, then purified himself, to the point where he was able to use dark magics without them corrupting him.... and if he doesn't retain his backstory, in what way is he the same character?

Thus the Ancient One and Agomotto getting involved about the essential articles of the Sorcorer Supreme. Are you worthy? And do you deserve the Eye of Agomotto and the Cape? It is a good story.

They are not essential articles of the Sorceror Supreme, as there have been Sorceror Supremes without possession of either one.

[vitruvian]

When you look at it, what Cage is doing is making no sense. He may be leaving the Avengers, but not the dangerous world of super heroics. You just know if ever there's a Heroes 4 Hire book, it's going to tie into the next major disaster event and then we'll get the "I was supposed to leave this life, but it won't leave me." angst.

Well, we as readers may be aware that if his new iteration of H4H gets an actual title, there'll likely be no shortage of threats to him and his family, sure, but from the character's perspective it may be perfectly reasonable to believe he'll be able to only take cases he knows he can handle pretty easily and without blowback, and that he won't be a big target like the Avengers have always been.

[chariset]

Well, we as readers may be aware that if his new iteration of H4H gets an actual title, there'll likely be no shortage of threats to him and his family, sure, but from the character's perspective it may be perfectly reasonable to believe he'll be able to only take cases he knows he can handle pretty easily and without blowback, and that he won't be a big target like the Avengers have always been.

He'll be on threats he can handle -- and they'll be his own enemies, not somebody else's. You saw what he could do against Doctor Strange's enemies...

I don't like the Ancient One getting dragged back into the Marvel Universe, and I don't like Bendis setting him up as the keeper of the office. But I'll give Bendis credit for sticking to his own rules. In Bendis World, the Ancient One and the Eye choose the worthy, and when Strange had been found worthy, they chose him again. (And I STILL say it was left ambiguous whether that were JUST the Ancient One and not Agamotto or the whole Vishanti too).

[jackolover]

Sorry, but that makes no sense unless there's been a reboot, since otherwise his version is supposed to be the same character as the previous version.

Strange has in the past, both prior to attaining the title of Sorceror Supreme and in the years since, used black magic multiple times. Therefore, he does not need to learn that it's okay to do so while retaining the title, he has known it for the long time. *

Tony Stark will be rebooted to have had his origin in the 2015 Saudi Arabian War in 10 years time, so reboots have been around for a while now. *My point is, Bendis is one of those creators that doesn't like excess baggage so he writes it again in his tenure.

Actually, he started off tainted and corrupt as the arrogant surgeon, then purified himself, to the point where he was able to use dark magics without them corrupting him.... and if he doesn't retain his backstory, in what way is he the same character?

Yes, he isn't the same character. *You've hit it. *That's the point of Bendis doing it his way. That's what I noticed about all his New Avengers like Spider- Man, Wolvy and Danny Rand, and the first Ronin. Let alone the complete change in the Spider-woman, because she's unrecognizable from the original.

They are not essential articles of the Sorceror Supreme, as there have been Sorceror Supremes without possession of either one.

I didn't know that. *I thought the Ancient One got them handed down too.

[Prince Of Orphans]

Well, we as readers may be aware that if his new iteration of H4H gets an actual title, there'll likely be no shortage of threats to him and his family, sure, but from the character's perspective it may be perfectly reasonable to believe he'll be able to only take cases he knows he can handle pretty easily and without blowback, and that he won't be a big target like the Avengers have always been.

I see what you're saying. That may be true, but I still don't think running H4H would be that much safer. Some of the street level guys like Mr. Negative and The Kingpin can really find ways to wreck your life.

[XPac]

He'll be on threats he can handle -- and they'll be his own enemies, not somebody else's. You saw what he could do against Doctor Strange's enemies...

I don't like the Ancient One getting dragged back into the Marvel Universe, and I don't like Bendis setting him up as the keeper of the office. But I'll give Bendis credit for sticking to his own rules. In Bendis World, the Ancient One and the Eye choose the worthy, and when Strange had been found worthy, they chose him again. (And I STILL say it was left ambiguous whether that were JUST the Ancient One and not Agamotto or the whole Vishanti too).

Agamotto did post as the Ancient One in that earlier New Avengers arc, so it's certainly a possibility.

Plus, the Agamotta's eye choosing who is worthy isn't that far removed from Agamotto himself choosing. It's technically his eye.