Vertigo was never a seperate universe and I will fistfight anyone that says otherwise

[Superdog]

I can't articulate why this annoys me so much, but it does for some reason. Maybe because this sort of editorial nonsense was kinda sorta used to justify killing Hellblazer. John Constantine was always a part of the DCU, as was Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Swamp Thing etc etc. They were seperated editorially from everybody else, but unless someone can point to something I am not aware of, there was never a seperate Vertigo-verse until it was decreed to be so in Flashpoint and then undone one second later.

Swamp Thing of course has fought Batman, John has met the Phantom Stranger, Doom Patrol went from being a Vertigo title to a non-Vertigo title and kept their Vertigo continuity. And of course Superman, Batman, and Constantine all have little cameos in Sandman, not to mention Daniel showing up in Morrison's JLA and Luthor meeting Death.

Of course there were some inconsistencies, but no more so than Garth Ennis writing Punisheras a Vietnam vet while everyone else in the world is on a sliding timeline, or even just the fact that Superman doesn't just zip over and capture the Joker every time he breaks out of prison.

[Billy Batson]

Oh yeah? OH YEAH?!?!
Fine, you win.

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah I think they've always been that way. Even Animal Man and Swamp Thing seem to be pretty faithful to the Vertigo versions.

They seem to just be making an exception with Constantine because of the real time aging.

[NaturalLight]

I can't articulate why this annoys me so much, but it does for some reason. Maybe because this sort of editorial nonsense was kinda sorta used to justify killing Hellblazer. John Constantine was always a part of the DCU, as was Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Swamp Thing etc etc. They were seperated editorially from everybody else, but unless someone can point to something I am not aware of, there was never a seperate Vertigo-verse until it was decreed to be so in Flashpoint and then undone one second later.

Swamp Thing of course has fought Batman, John has met the Phantom Stranger, Doom Patrol went from being a Vertigo title to a non-Vertigo title and kept their Vertigo continuity. And of course Superman, Batman, and Constantine all have little cameos in Sandman, not to mention Daniel showing up in Morrison's JLA and Luthor meeting Death.

Of course there were some inconsistencies, but no more so than Garth Ennis writing Punisheras a Vietnam vet while everyone else in the world is on a sliding timeline, or even just the fact that Superman doesn't just zip over and capture the Joker every time he breaks out of prison.

I'm with you. When the Vertigo line was first established it was really nothing more than an "adult"-oriented line but it took place in proper DC continuity. The main difference was characters could have sex, women could show their boobs and Constantine could say "f__K."

I don't know when, but at some point, someone decided the two worlds - DC and Vertigo - were no longer directly tied.

I'm not sure how much of a mandate it is, though, as Death crossed over with Action Comics and not too many years ago Morpheus's son Appeared in the JLA run (which you noted.)

In regards to the Punisher and the Vietnam War, I believe Ennis only ties the two together in the Max line of comics, most of which is outside the Marvel 616 universe.

As an aside, you forgot to mention the Constantine appearance in Green Arrow (it was a brief cameo during the Grell run.)

[Mr. Holmes]

Wasn't Grell's run in the 80s (so pre-Vertigo)?

[Billy Batson]

It was in '89 so yeah, pre-Vertigo.

[NaturalLight]

It was in '89 so yeah, pre-Vertigo.

Yeah, guess, you're right.

[Kizmet]

But Vertigo also includes books which are certainly NOT a part of the DCU: Fables, American Vampire, etc. Superman is not flying around in the worlds inhabited by those characters.

[passer-by]

Exactly, Vertigo is not just stories with DCU characters, it's got creator-owned titles like Daytripper, Preacher, Transmetropolitan, 100 Bullets, The Invisibles, DMZ, The Losers, Northlanders, Scalped, Fables, Y the Last Man and so on and so forth. Those aren't part of the DCU (thankfully).



ETA: A good summing-up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo...r-owned_series

Creator-owned series

Much of Vertigo's output, however, inhabits its own "universe," and is set completely apart from the DC universe (and from other Vertigo titles—there is no "Vertigo Universe" per se), automatically putting to rest any continuity quibbles between the two. Vertigo was the first successful imprint of DC Comics to routinely publish creator-owned series, right from its launch, with Peter Milligan and Duncan Fegredo's Enigma. From the start, Berger was committed to creator-owned projects, working on several "[her]self with new writers and artists" as well as established names, with the express intention of "trying to bring new people into the industry, as well as use some of the best creators in comics."

[Billy Batson]

Yeah, guess, you're right.

Nah, that was Holmes :p

[Billy Batson]

But the characters in those series have appeared in the DCU. Agent Graves, Saints of Killers and some others, possibly. But they appeared in stories written by their creators of course. Random, I know, but fun.

[Superdog]

In regards to the Punisher and the Vietnam War, I believe Ennis only ties the two together in the Max line of comics, most of which is outside the Marvel 616 universe.

As an aside, you forgot to mention the Constantine appearance in Green Arrow (it was a brief cameo during the Grell run.)

In the Marvel Knights Vietnam gets mentioned as well. Off the top of my head he mentions someone he served with in one of the stories.

According to Comic book database, John shows up in an issue of Teen Titans. I have no idea if that's true or not and what the context could be.

But Vertigo also includes books which are certainly NOT a part of the DCU: Fables, American Vampire, etc. Superman is not flying around in the worlds inhabited by those characters.

Well yes, I assumed it was obvious I was refering only to the characters who were from DC, not creator owned titles.

[passer-by]

Well yes, I assumed it was obvious I was refering only to the characters who were from DC, not creator owned titles.

I don't think anyone would dispute that DC characters are not part of the DCU. ;)

And when I think of Vertigo, it's the creator-owned titles that usually come to mind (perhaps with the exception of Sandman, Swamp Thing and Hellblazer). I suspect it's the same with other Vertigo readers.

[Pralaya]

until it was decreed to be so in Flashpoint and then undone one second later.

Hello, I'm sincerely curious, could you please remind me in which issue it happened? Thank you.
I think I have read the whole "Flashpoint" event, and with few exceptions, I have a negative opinion of it from a narrative standpoint.

[Superdog]

Hello, I'm sincerely curious, could you please remind me in which issue it happened? Thank you.
I think I have read the whole "Flashpoint" event, and with few exceptions, I have a negative opinion of it from a narrative standpoint.

In the last issue there was some sort of splash page that showed main DCU, Vertigo (with Constantine and Swamp Thing) and Wildstorm as three seperate things, and then something about combining them. Now that I think about, Constantine was put back into the main DCU with Brightest Day and the Search for Swamp Thing, which predates Flashpoint I think.