BATMAN INCORPORATED #5 Preview/Discussion/Spoilers

[Mr. Holmes]

No, Bruce says he remembered being drugged. It was Morrison forgetting how Son of the Demon went down, plain and simple.

[ElMacho]

Michael Lane was never the Anti-Christ, it's always been Damian.

Good point, but maybe Damian was always planned (by Darkseid) to be the anti-Christ, don't forget that Damian has already saved Bruce, and quite possibly the world.

Leave the little guy alone!

I've gotta get back to work here, but please keep this discussion going guys, and don't forget to discuss the possible traitor in Incs ranks, and is Dr.Hurt under the mask of the suddenly immortal and more evil than ever lord Death Man?.

Things are finally getting interesting around here!.

[DrSimonHurt]

No, Bruce says he remembered being drugged. It was Morrison forgetting how Son of the Demon went down, plain and simple.

Bruce believes he was drugged.

It was Morrison making Son of the Demon fit into post-infinite crisis history. That story was non-canon, even back then.

[dipic]

Damn, pretty great issue. I'm (cautiously) excited and optimistic to see how Morrison wraps this thing up.

[jgiannantoni05]

But let me just say this, if the deal comes AFTER Bruce's death, and we assume that Bruce won't be killed off in the main continuity of the new52, then there is basically no threat of any deal with Hurt being made in the next seven issues, and all this 666 stuff was really just a "what if?" that never really mattered, other than to show us what happens after the bad guys win?.

Is this what your thinking is about?
Grant is trying to tell a story about fathers and sons and values and other stuff. Who really cares if the 666verse is "what if" or not? That's not my primary focus, and probably not Grant's either.

[screwdriver23]

But let me just say this, if the deal comes AFTER Bruce's death, and we assume that Bruce won't be killed off in the main continuity of the new52, then there is basically no threat of any deal with Hurt being made in the next seven issues, and all this 666 stuff was really just a "what if?" that never really mattered, other than to show us what happens after the bad guys win?.

I don't think that's right at all... Bruce seeing this alternate future is what spurred the entire Batman Inc. operation... it mattered immensely to making the story even happen. Also, the existence of the story of Batman 700 suggests the plot of the alt-future may in fact still be in play.

Damian said near the end of this issue that nobody can see the future... I think that's important to remember.

[ViewtifulJC]

That's fair enough man, and I apologize for that last line in my last reply to you, it was unnecessary to be fair. Inc has taken a long time to get to this issue, which is effectively issue #16.

I'm not trying to be a smart @ss, I really only post here to try and find out new things about the book, and most off all discuss what might happen.

No harm, no foul. If anything, you've inspired me to read through my Batman and Son trade again. The things I like(ninja manbats fight, 666, Damian, Alfred's humor) and dislike(Tony Daniel, Clown at Midnight) are still there, but it's fun seeing it all again for the first time in years.

[Retro315]

Bruce believes he was drugged.

It was Morrison making Son of the Demon fit into post-infinite crisis history. That story was non-canon, even back then.

Even with the previously uncondensed holistic timeline of Batman the 70s and 80s had to smash together, a little. Son of the Demon came out in the 80s but arguably for it to work (and using the laid out panels of "Eye of the Gorgon"), the retroactively "canonical" slightly tweaked Son of the Demon must come pretty much immediately after the initial "Demon's Quest" events which introduced Ra's al Ghul and Talia in the first place - because everything after that just made the odds of Bruce shacking up with her more and more impossible.

I'm pretty cool with the notion that sometime in the "Dick Grayson is 17" days, Batman's sort of "Junior Year Era" (Freshman = Year One and "Early Days Tales", and Sophomore = The freaky psychedelia of the 50s and 60s), that he had a few months where he just kept tangling with this international assassin lord and his freaky deaky daughter in the desert.

So it's canonical placement isn't literal. (All this without even bothering to dive into the dynamics you have to navigate to rationalize Damian's 10 years of age, because even in the previous holistic "all eras count" pre-Flashpoint days, I was not willing to accept that 10 years had passed between Dick Grayson being 17 and "now")

Is this what your thinking is about?
Grant is trying to tell a story about fathers and sons and values and other stuff. Who really cares if the 666verse is "what if" or not? That's not my primary focus, and probably not Grant's either.

More than that ... ignoring the symbolic value and the full circle nature (and my recent essay basically pointed directly to the fact that the 666 future HAD to be revisited a third time. The numerology of three, the third Six. The password to the end has been input.) revisiting the 666 future, just like the first and second time is less about the likelihood of that future ever happening and more about an oblique and well, fun, means of adding clues.

It's all about the clues.

Re-reading the original especially, but also the second 666 appearance in hindsight and you can basically see half of the major themes or plot moves spelled out for you, right there, as far back as 2006/7.

I'm really excited to think about what revisiting Final Crisis might do with all this 20/20 hindsight, excited except that it's an undertaking I kind of dread.

[ViewtifulJC]

Well all the Morrison talk is fine and dandy, I think it would be remiss not to mention how very, very good Chris Burnham is. One of the biggest flaws in Morrison's bat-epic in my mind is that it's been so artistically inconsistent. We got the highs of Quitely only to succumb to the lows of Billy Tan. We got giant purple prose issues and internet-fight issues with dreadful artwork that looks like Reboot, but we also have JH Williams III being totally amazing. You read the script of Batman RIP and think, "Wow, this sounds awesome!" then you look at the actual comic and you realize it's messy, muddled, unsubtle Tony Daniel artwork everywhere. Frank Quitely draws an awesome fight scene with Batman and Robin vs a group of DKR's mutants, to be immediately followed up by these ugly Scott Kollins panels for what SHOULD have been some iconic montage sequences, and instead we got Dick Grayson shaving for some reason.

Sometimes I respect this run for it's unending ambition and ideas more then outright admire. It's so big and unwieldy it's kinda hard to wrap your arms around it for a hug. I don't think it's any coincidence though, that the best issues have some of the best artists(The Island of Mister Mayhew, Batman Reborn, Batman and Robin Must Die, most of the Return of Bruce Wayne), and you can throw Batman Inc in there as well(well, again, except that really awful internet one in #8 I believe). Chris Burnham brings every single wacky idea to life, infuses every single panel with the kind of crazed wacked-out energy and detail, but is also totally in-sync with Morrison's scripts and how to bring them to life. No longer do I have to worry about what the next issue is gonna look like. It's just always works wonderfully, page and page, issue after issue. I think Batman Inc is the strongest and most consistent part of Morrison's Bat-Saga, and in large part of that is having a great artist he(and we, the readers) can depend on.

[batman23]

Well all the Morrison talk is fine and dandy, I think it would be remiss not to mention how very, very good Chris Burnham is. One of the biggest flaws in Morrison's bat-epic in my mind is that it's been so artistically inconsistent. We got the highs of Quitely only to succumb to the lows of Billy Tan. We got giant purple prose issues and internet-fight issues with dreadful artwork that looks like Reboot, but we also have JH Williams III being totally amazing. You read the script of Batman RIP and think, "Wow, this sounds awesome!" then you look at the actual comic and you realize it's messy, muddled, unsubtle Tony Daniel artwork everywhere. Frank Quitely draws an awesome fight scene with Batman and Robin vs a group of DKR's mutants, to be immediately followed up by these ugly Scott Kollins panels for what SHOULD have been some iconic montage sequences, and instead we got Dick Grayson shaving for some reason.

Sometimes I respect this run for it's unending ambition and ideas more then outright admire. It's so big and unwieldy it's kinda hard to wrap your arms around it for a hug. I don't think it's any coincidence though, that the best issues have some of the best artists(The Island of Mister Mayhew, Batman Reborn, Batman and Robin Must Die, most of the Return of Bruce Wayne), and you can throw Batman Inc in there as well(well, again, except that really awful internet one in #8 I believe). Chris Burnham brings every single wacky idea to life, infuses every single panel with the kind of crazed wacked-out energy and detail, but is also totally in-sync with Morrison's scripts and how to bring them to life. No longer do I have to worry about what the next issue is gonna look like. It's just always works wonderfully, page and page, issue after issue. I think Batman Inc is the strongest and most consistent part of Morrison's Bat-Saga, and in large part of that is having a great artist he(and we, the readers) can depend on.

Rather than inconsistent, although there have been different artists, I think it's another point of how excellent his entire run on Batman has been. Depending on the type of story it's going to be, he picks the right artist for it. No offense to these artists because I love their work, but I doubt that a Frazier Irving or a John Van Fleet would have fit for a Batman Inc. In contrast I don't think Chris Burnham's art would have fit for Batman & Son or even the Clown at Midnight. For the second arc of Batman & Robin, it changes to Tan and from the first page where you start reading, subconsciously as a reader you know it's going to be a different type of story. What makes his run and what I appreciate most, is that his writing and the art work hand in hand in creating a tone and making for a better story.

Yet on the other hand, I do see what you're saying.

[T Hedge Coke]

I think you're unfair on Kollins, there, and shaving and late dinner Batman are pretty great, but Burnham's doing serious work no doubt. He's smart and puts so much in his work. The level of echoes and symbolism in his work is awesome and it's loose, it's not the draw. His layouts are fierce, and they're not the draw. His character work is aces, and not the draw. His range of bodytypes, of scenery, of depth and tone. But the draw, the real sell, to me, is that it's all there and none of it overtakes the rest, none of it appears to have taken tons of thought and effort and you know it did.

Plus, the man draws a punch like a mutha_____.

[ElMacho]

Is this what your thinking is about?
Grant is trying to tell a story about fathers and sons and values and other stuff. Who really cares if the 666verse is "what if" or not? That's not my primary focus, and probably not Grant's either.

This plot element of a deal that ends the world as we know it, doesn't seem like something that will serve no purpose in the overarching plot, which is effectively the case if it can only be made after Bruce dies, and we know (as readers) that there's no chance of seeing it actually happen. If the deal comes before the death, now there's a chance we might actually see it, it serves a purpose in the larger plot, and it can be used to tie up some old plot threads.

I've already mentioned Metrons words to Bruce after he received his "vision" (or brief knowledge of everything that ever has or will happen in our Universe, to be more specific) at the end of Return of Bruce Wayne, they've always stuck in my mind throughout the run since ROBW #6, I feel like we've now all seen "Darkseid's design" in this latest issue. Damian will be Darkseid's weapon despite his best efforts, the catalyst of his design, it's been made abundantly clear since #666 that everything Damian touches after this deal turns to sh!t (to be blunt). But this time around, thanks to his bond with the archivist, Bruce knows what Darkseid is planning (even if his memory of what he learned is hazy). I'm not sure how, but I think Bruce is going to follow Metrons advice and turn Darkseid's own design against him, perhaps he will let the deal happen and find a way to use Damian's new found powers against Darkseid, or maybe he will trade places with Damian and literally take personal "control of Darkseid's design", or maybe he will trick Hurt into dealing with someone else entirely to achieve an entirely different outcome, I'm just throwing out guesses, but the point is this:

I think that the deal comes before the death, and that we will see it again in some form, for reasons I've hopefully clarified in my last couple of posts. Grant's spoken a lot about circles in the plot, and this way the overarching plot of the run comes full circle, beginning and ending with Batman's defeat of Darkseid (Hurt/Darkseid was plotting against Bruce in Batman and Son). If Bruce has to die before the deal is made, we know the deal can't happen, and Darkseid's plans become irrelevant to the end of the run, which then presumably ends with Bruce's defeat of Talia.

I don't think that's right at all... Bruce seeing this alternate future is what spurred the entire Batman Inc. operation... it mattered immensely to making the story even happen. Also, the existence of the story of Batman 700 suggests the plot of the alt-future may in fact still be in play.

Damian said near the end of this issue that nobody can see the future... I think that's important to remember.

A small portion of what I said was taken out of the context of the conversation it was written for. My whole point is that the #666 timeline and especially Bruce's vision MATTER. We were talking about which came first, Damian's deal with Hurt or Bruce's death?. Here's a larger portion of the quote:

But let me just say this, if the deal comes AFTER Bruce's death, and we assume that Bruce won't be killed off in the main continuity of the new52, then there is basically no threat of any deal with Hurt being made in the next seven issues, and all this 666 stuff was really just a "what if?" that never really mattered, other than to show us what happens after the bad guys win?.

Maybe the deal will happen, and Bruce will (as Metron put it in ROBW) "take control of Darkseids design"....."turn evils challenge upside down and end it". Surely if the threat of the deal is real (MC Macho ) than older plot threads, such as the one above, can be tied together, and it will have more of a purpose within the plot........

[jgiannantoni05]

If Bruce has to die before the deal is made, we know the deal can't happen, and Darkseid's plans become irrelevant to the end of the run, which then presumably ends with Bruce's defeat of Talia.

This is comics. We all indulge the possibility of Batman losing and/or dying, when we know as longtime readers it won't really happen, because the superhero(es) wins.

The deal isn't gonna happen. Bruce is gonna make the right moves to protect himself. And Damian is gonna make the right choices, not let his father die, and show he's truly his father's son.

Darkseid's plans would still be relevant, because Hurt & Talia & Damain are the remnants of Darkseid's plans. Bruce protecting himself & son's choices (his son's soul) will end the remnants of Darkseid's plans, the remnants of his revenge.

Grant's spoken a lot about circles in the plot, and this way the overarching plot of the run comes full circle, beginning and ending with Batman's defeat of Darkseid (Hurt/Darkseid was plotting against Bruce in Batman and Son).

More specifically, it started with Damian & Talia, and will end dealing with Damian & Talia IMHO. Dealing with them will deal with Darkseid, defeat Darkseid...Darkseid, who I think specifically will not be emphasized much anymore because a) he was defeated in RoBW/B&R and b) Flashpoint's changes.

[ElMacho]

The deal isn't gonna happen.

Just to be clear, I never actually said that the deal IS going to happen, I said that I suspect "we will see it again in some form", meaning that I think we might see Hurt again bargain for Damian's soul in some form between now and the end of the run. Obviously none of us can 100% guarantee what's going to happen.

Darkseid's plans would still be relevant, because Hurt & Talia & Damain are the remnants of Darkseid's plans. Bruce protecting himself & son's choices (his son's soul) will end the remnants of Darkseid's plans, the remnants of his revenge.

If Bruce dies before the deal is made, than he doesn't have to worry about his sons soul, all he has to concentrate on is keeping himself alive.

Surely mentioning "Bruce protecting himself and his sons choices (his sons soul)" is tantamount to saying that the deal (at least could) happens before the death?. If the final phase of Darkseid's plan involves using his own corrupted Batman as a catalyst to bring about his "design", and this can only begin after Bruce's death, and everyone knows Bruce won't die anytime soon, as a reader, the final phase of his plan can be forgotten about completely for the next seven issues.

More specifically, it started with Damian & Talia, and will end dealing with Damian & Talia IMHO. Dealing with them will deal with Darkseid, defeat Darkseid...Darkseid, who I think specifically will not be emphasized much anymore because a) he was defeated in RoBW/B&R and b) Flashpoint's changes.

Yea, fair point, I even said something very similar to this myself on another forum a while back, my opinions changed a bit since then as you can probably tell . Again, I'm not saying "you're wrong", but I would say that we saw Hurts/Darkseid's influence and plan to destroy Batman, before Talia or Damian in this run, back in the first few pages of that first issue, where one of the Hurt created "ghosts of Batman" shot Joker, and zur en arghh was written in graffiti all over the place. Of course Dr.Hurt came from Batman's defeat of Darkseid in Final Crisis, hence the reason I said, beginning and ending with Batman's defeat of Darkseid.

Anyway at least now you can see where I'm coming from, and I can see where you're coming from. In regards to the "before or after" question I think we can all say that either answer could be correct at this point, and it's probably best to leave it there until definite proof comes along. To be perfectly honest, I'm all for new villains, like Otto Netz, and if turned out that a new villain (or Talia for that matter) was behind everything and not Darkseid I'd be perfectly pleased.

By the way any thoughts on how Talia got access to the Inc comms systems?. I have a feeling the Hood might be a mole in Batman Inc, Retro pointed out that Damian himself might be bugged, any other suspects or ideas out there?.

[jgiannantoni05]

Surely mentioning "Bruce protecting himself and his sons choices (his sons soul)" is tantamount to saying that the deal (at least could) happens before the death?.

No. I'm personally thinking Bruce will focus on keeping his son from being a killer (thus, maybe, if he could be changed that way, he'd never consider selling his soul...he'd understand that cheating (killing is cheating in Bruce's eyes, taking the easy way) is never allowed). Also, Bruce will focus (as usual) on staying alive. An offer may happen to Damian, but that's the most (no deal).

If the final phase of Darkseid's plan involves using his own corrupted Batman as a catalyst to bring about his "design", and this can only begin after Bruce's death, and everyone knows Bruce won't die anytime soon, as a reader, the final phase of his plan can be forgotten about completely for the next seven issues.

Again, we comic readers have to pretend to think that Batman might die (that Talia & Leviathan stand a real chance at killing Bruce). Like with every story. Lots of villains' plans have hinged on Batman dying, but, that rascal, he never does.

Joker's plan in The Death of the Family can then be forgotten because Joker won't win, the black glove (Batman) always wins. But that's not how it works in reading & enjoying comics.