Tiring Of The Unfinished Feel of Bryan Azzarello's Wonder Woman

[Superdog]

Since it is a hard reboot, and presumably they want to bring new readers in, wouldn't you think they would want to give us more than they have? If I was a new reader to Wonder Woman and haven't read any of her prior adventures, I think I would be pretty confused about some of the basics that we know or take for granted in other heroes.

This is the first time I've ever followed a Wonder Woman monthly and I was not the slightest bit confused about any of the things anyone has mentioned.

[CaptMagellan]

While I see the validity of the 'comic strip' structure argument, I've been interacting with Azz's run more like he's writing a novel that is serialized in chapters each month (how 'Victorian' of him!). As such, his first year was like a 12 chapter 'Book 1' within the novel and we're just a few chapters into 'Book 2'. How many 'Books' within the sprawling novel will depend on how long he stays on the title.

It's similar to how he wrote '100 Bullets' and due to that I'm not anticipating answers just because it's expected within superheroic comic books or because certain fans want it. For those of us who like that approach, going back to the old comic book expectations and structure would be as much as a disappointment as the current approach is for those who don't like it.

Azz'll do as he's gonna do - as if he were writing a novel - and as long as sales continue to be strong, editorial will probably see this as a good thing. Even those who complain (on CBR) seem to still be buying and reading and talking about everything they don't like in-between issues.

From DC's pov, it's probably a win-win for everyone (including those who don't like the run as they are still buying and getting 'entertainment' value in kvetching on the internet).

[wagthedog]

It shouldn't be used in a meaningless fashion, as in to just to show that it's there.



And how do you think the rest of us feel when we hear the same questions from the same people month in and month out?



Do you understand what the difference is between Doom 3 and Silent Hill 2?

I have absolutely no idea what the hell I am supposed to get out of knowing a difference between video games is supposed to tell me.

And you are probably not the person that my posts, or some of the other posts of other members, are going to sway in another direction. I know that you are firmly in the camp of Azz and that he has done everything as perfect as possible during this run.

And sure, it shouldn't be done in a meaningless fashion, as you would say, but during his first 15 issue run, he sure could have put in a morsel or two. It's a hard reboot without a real origin, or at least one that hasn't been fleshed out to any extent.

What if Superman had a hard reboot and they just smacked him right in the middle of some adventure and 15 issues later we still don't know anything about him?

[Gaelforce]

Scott Snyder changed Swamp Thing into a completely different person, and so far has not explained what happened to the old Swamp Thing nor the relation between the two. So be glad you're not a Swamp Thing fan. I guess I'll just say I'm glad Azzarello took the approach he did, starting a new story in media res, instead of re-hashing her origin for the 7th or 8th time. Honestely, it sounds like what you're looking for is some some kind of continuity checklist, not even a story.

This is massively incorrect, so please don't assume what I want ;)

I want to see the story. This isn't the same story as before, so it's *not* a rehash. There doesn't seem to have been a Contest among the Amazons for the honor of returning Steve Trevor to man's world. Diana was no longer the only child of the Amazons. She didn't know about her godly origins, yet she wears cuffs forged by a god and I would like to know how/why/when - you know...the *story* behind them.

I don't want a checklist. I don't want minutiae. What I would like to see:

1. The *new* origin *story* since it clearly differs greatly from the original. What happened with Steve Trevor on Themyscira, what caused Diana to apparently turn her back on everyone and everything she knew for him, etc., and when/where/how did the cuffs come into the picture?

2. A ballpark idea of her powers (I mean seriously - she flies in one book but doesn't in another, or she hovers, or she needs a feather or...) She can smash trees and fight gods, but we don't know where any of those gods stand in terms of power so we don't know what that means.

I do like the story so far, *but* it is *faaaar* too decompressed for my liking, and I think out of the 16 issues so far, we could have easily seen this story told *and* gotten the story we have so far.

If the backstory hadn't changed so much, we wouldn't care to see it - I don't want another re-telling of the same story, but this clearly is an all new one.

[Imraith Nimphais]

This is the first time I've ever followed a Wonder Woman monthly and I was not the slightest bit confused about any of the things anyone has mentioned.

And I am a 41 year old reader who has read WW off and on since I was 12 and ..."I was not the slightest bit confused about any of the things anyone has mentioned."
I personally think a lot of the "confusion" stems from lack of an open mind and an unwillingness to accept something "different" and just go with it.

[Outside_85]

I have absolutely no idea what the hell I am supposed to get out of knowing a difference between video games is supposed to tell me.

Both are technically categorized as horror games, only one of them isn't scary because you tend to carry a massive arsenal of weapons around and can blow away anything that frequently leaps at you from the shadows.

And you are probably not the person that my posts, or some of the other posts of other members, are going to sway in another direction. I know that you are firmly in the camp of Azz and that he has done everything as perfect as possible during this run.

As I know you are in the Anti-Azzarello camp, so seeing a different tone from you will only come when a new writer comes on board and most likely takes the book in a much more bland direction.

And sure, it shouldn't be done in a meaningless fashion, as you would say, but during his first 15 issue run, he sure could have put in a morsel or two. It's a hard reboot without a real origin, or at least one that hasn't been fleshed out to any extent.

It still amazes me that you don't see how much that would have taken the sting out of especially issue 3 and 4 since it's shock, awe and outrage both in pages out of them is based on the old origins remaining the same.
And sry, but I don't see a reason why we need to see 'Diana leaves PI with Steve' version 3, because the end result is exactly the same. It's the same with Blackest Night, I dont need to see that retold for the New 52 even if it has to have been heavily modified to fit.

What if Superman had a hard reboot and they just smacked him right in the middle of some adventure and 15 issues later we still don't know anything about him?

Maybe he'd be surrounded by an interesting story. You know, like he was the first few issues of Morrisons Action Comics before they decided to head down the old BS avenue with the present day story and Morrisons dimension skipping compulsion took over Action.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Completely off topic but...

I LOVE BRENDA STARR!!!! I had the biggest crush on Basil St. John. DC should do Comic book.

[Imraith Nimphais]

And before anybody says it, ..I don't care what's happening in other comics. Wonder Woman has no recognizable center and no unifying vision. Try to deal with that, as it relates to the comic, before making a comparitive study to use in defense of Azzarello's work.

Well...I for one have absolutely nothing to say to that...because it is quite apparent you and I have vastly different expectations and as such are reading two different WW books.

[Gaelforce]

I'm not at all confused.

I just feel as if the book is missing something.

I can follow the story, I understand the plot, I like the gods, etc. (Still think there isn't enough Diana in her own book ;) )

I would just like to get the full story of her background and a better extent of her powers. It's not rocket science - it's a comic book staple. If you're fine without it, that's great! I'm not saying you or anyone else shouldn't be enjoying the book, or that I'm not enjoying it - I would just enjoy it more if it were better fleshed out.

[Mark_S]

I'm not at all confused.

I just feel as if the book is missing something.

I can follow the story, I understand the plot, I like the gods, etc. (Still think there isn't enough Diana in her own book ;) )

I would just like to get the full story of her background and a better extent of her powers. It's not rocket science - it's a comic book staple. If you're fine without it, that's great! I'm not saying you or anyone else shouldn't be enjoying the book, or that I'm not enjoying it - I would just enjoy it more if it were better fleshed out.

I get the feeling that it will be fleshed out, but that it will take another five years or so to accomplish that. I like it enough to hang in there but I'd like the story to move faster than the continent I live on.

[americanwonder]

I'm not at all confused.

I just feel as if the book is missing something.

I can follow the story, I understand the plot, I like the gods, etc. (Still think there isn't enough Diana in her own book ;) )

I would just like to get the full story of her background and a better extent of her powers. It's not rocket science - it's a comic book staple. If you're fine without it, that's great! I'm not saying you or anyone else shouldn't be enjoying the book, or that I'm not enjoying it - I would just enjoy it more if it were better fleshed out.

Well said, Gaelforce.

If I may add to the line I bolded, I feel like these types of conversations may miss something in the back-and-forth. I can only speak for me, but when I express a criticism, complaint, frustration or whatever, that doesn't mean I expect everyone to share the exact same view. At the same time, just because others are enjoying the story, doesn't mean there isn't validity to the criticism from others.

Take Rucka's run on WW for example. I enjoy it. It's my favorite WW. But when others have said they didn't like it, in part, because it was slow, I can't really say there's no validity to that complaint. I enjoyed the slow burn build up. But it was slow. For some that will not be an issue, for others it will be. In short, just because I enjoyed it doesn't mean there's no validity to the complaint that it was slow.

Like you, I am not looking for a checklist of minutiae, nor do I want spoon fed explanations for everything - I think those are inaccurate, dismissive, mischaratizations of the criticism. More than anything, I want more value per issue. For instance, I'm sure we all remember the 2-page splash page for Are and Strife at the cafe. It wasn't an important scene, it wasn't even all that splashy, in a super-hero sense. It was an explotion that didn't even advance the basic plot. It was a waste of page space in a comic with very limited number of pages. I think that's the most obvious example, but overall, I think Azzarello and the gang could use some editing to put more story value in every comic rather than plodding along so sssssss-l-oooooooo-zzz-w-l-y.

Much of the missing value, imo, is due to the lack of Diana herself. Sure, she's still the most prominent member of this rag-tag bunch, but because so much page time it spent on so many characters, none of the characters really get much depth. Yes, I can see that the story does add some bits here and there (and I don't doubt Azzarello has plans for more). I, for one, just think it's been too needlessly sparse.

In Diana's case, if Zola hadn't shown up, can we say what Diana would be doing with herself? With Batman, we know that if Joker wasn't in town, Bats would still be patroling Gotham. With Superman, when there's no "super" emergency, we can easily picture Clark working on a story. With Diana, she, um, she eats at a cafe and rocks the night away while waiting for her next adventure or something?

So, to me, it's not really about the details of how she pays her bills, etc. - it's about getting to know her.

[Rob_Olivera]

Well said, Gaelforce.

If I may add to the line I bolded, I feel like these types of conversations may miss something in the back-and-forth. I can only speak for me, but when I express a criticism, complaint, frustration or whatever, that doesn't mean I expect everyone to share the exact same view. At the same time, just because others are enjoying the story, doesn't mean there isn't validity to the criticism from others.

Take Rucka's run on WW for example. I enjoy it. It's my favorite WW. But when others have said they didn't like it, in part, because it was slow, I can't really say there's no validity to that complaint. I enjoyed the slow burn build up. But it was slow. For some that will not be an issue, for others it will be. In short, just because I enjoyed it doesn't mean there's no validity to the complaint that it was slow.

Like you, I am not looking for a checklist of minutiae, nor do I want spoon fed explanations for everything - I think those are inaccurate, dismissive, mischaratizations of the criticism. More than anything, I want more value per issue. For instance, I'm sure we all remember the 2-page splash page for Are and Strife at the cafe. It wasn't an important scene, it wasn't even all that splashy, in a super-hero sense. It was an explotion that didn't even advance the basic plot. It was a waste of page space in a comic with very limited number of pages. I think that's the most obvious example, but overall, I think Azzarello and the gang could use some editing to put more story value in every comic rather than plodding along so sssssss-l-oooooooo-zzz-w-l-y.

Much of the missing value, imo, is due to the lack of Diana herself. Sure, she's still the most prominent member of this rag-tag bunch, but because so much page time it spent on so many characters, none of the characters really get much depth. Yes, I can see that the story does add some bits here and there (and I don't doubt Azzarello has plans for more). I, for one, just think it's been too needlessly sparse.

In Diana's case, if Zola hadn't shown up, can we say what Diana would be doing with herself? With Batman, we know that if Joker wasn't in town, Bats would still be patroling Gotham. With Superman, when there's no "super" emergency, we can easily picture Clark working on a story. With Diana, she, um, she eats at a cafe and rocks the night away while waiting for her next adventure or something?

So, to me, it's not really about the details of how she pays her bills, etc. - it's about getting to know her.

Gael & AWonder:

Obviously the book is missing "something". The whole point here is that people don't care. They like to fill-in with their imagination and have fun doing so.

I feel exactly the same way you both do. But I must admit, we ARE in the minority apparently.

[slvn]

If I was a new reader to Wonder Woman and haven't read any of her prior adventures, I think I would be pretty confused about some of the basics that we know or take for granted in other heroes.

You might, but then again, maybe you (and even I) wonder more about some of these things than a new reader would--especially a reader who is new not only to Wonder Woman but to comics, or (more realistically) returning to comics after a hiatus of some length. A reader new to comics might not be aware of, and a reader returning to comics might no longer care about or even remember, our conventional expectations about what we are supposed to know about superheroes.

Take the "job" issue as an example. We long-time readers know that Diana has been a nurse, a confidential assistant to an intelligence officer, an intelligence officer in her own right, an ambassador, and even a taco shack waitress. Having this background probably makes us more likely to wonder what she does for a living now. A new reader who hears that she's a princess may be less likely to wonder what she does for a living--because this isn't a question people always ask about princesses. Princesses do...princess things. We don't always picture them worrying about their liveliehoods. Sure , once the new reader gets to issue 2, he or she sees that Diana is no Princess Di in terms of having a prosperous modern state behind her--but she's still a princess, and that alone is probably enough to make a new reader less likely to be curious to the point of distraction about her liveliehood. (A little curious, sure, but as long as curiosity doesn't become a major distraction, it's not a bad thing.)

Or look at the "home city" issue. Why should a new reader be confused about the fact that she lives in London? Even if the new reader knows from JL, or guesses from her costume, that she first came to the US when she left Paradise Island, wouldn't that reader find it perfectly natural that a princess learning about the world beyond her isolated island would want to live in more than one country and more than one of the world's great cities? What's to be confused about?

As far as the origin...well, the new reader knows that she is the daughter of Hippolyta and Zeus, formerly supposed to have been made of clay. The new reader isn't going to be as curious as us about the tournament or the blessings of the gods, for instance, as longtime readers are or were. Readers new and old are no doubt curious about things like why she wore that costume as a child or, even more so, how she learned about god mode and came to wear the bracelets, and how they work. But a lot of those things are things we've only known about for the last four or five months, and not all of us find it unpleasant to stay curious for awhile. And don't forget--comics have trained us to place a lot of importance on origins (and "Sons of Origins," etc.) In other kinds of fiction that readers new to comics may be familiar with, it's not necessarily unusual for important parts of a hero's past to remain unrevealed. So new or returning readers may not feel like a mysterious origin is a lapse.

That being said, I'm sure that there ARE some new readers who find the comic too confusing or slow or vague, just as there are some longtime readers who feel that way. Nothing is liked by everyone. Personally, I like the book, and some new readers like Notsuper obviously like it. I'm not at all saying that anyone who doesn't like it is wrong; it's a matter of personal preference.

[Rob_Olivera]

You might, but then again, maybe you (and even I) wonder more about some of these things than a new reader would--especially a reader who is new not only to Wonder Woman but to comics, or (more realistically) returning to comics after a hiatus of some length. A reader new to comics might not be aware of, and a reader returning to comics might no longer care about or even remember, our conventional expectations about what we are supposed to know about superheroes.

Take the "job" issue as an example. We long-time readers know that Diana has been a nurse, a confidential assistant to an intelligence officer, an intelligence officer in her own right, an ambassador, and even a taco shack waitress. Having this background probably makes us more likely to wonder what she does for a living now. A new reader who hears that she's a princess may be less likely to wonder what she does for a living--because this isn't a question people always ask about princesses. Princesses do...princess things. We don't always picture them worrying about their liveliehoods. Sure , once the new reader gets to issue 2, he or she sees that Diana is no Princess Di in terms of having a prosperous modern state behind her--but she's still a princess, and that alone is probably enough to make a new reader less likely to be curious to the point of distraction about her liveliehood. (A little curious, sure, but as long as curiosity doesn't become a major distraction, it's not a bad thing.)

Or look at the "home city" issue. Why should a new reader be confused about the fact that she lives in London? Even if the new reader knows from JL, or guesses from her costume, that she first came to the US when she left Paradise Island, wouldn't that reader find it perfectly natural that a princess learning about the world beyond her isolated island would want to live in more than one country and more than one of the world's great cities? What's to be confused about?

As far as the origin...well, the new reader knows that she is the daughter of Hippolyta and Zeus, formerly supposed to have been made of clay. The new reader isn't going to be as curious as us about the tournament or the blessings of the gods, for instance, as longtime readers are or were. Readers new and old are no doubt curious about things like why she wore that costume as a child or, even more so, how she learned about god mode and came to wear the bracelets, and how they work. But a lot of those things are things we've only known about for the last four or five months, and not all of us find it unpleasant to stay curious for awhile. And don't forget--comics have trained us to place a lot of importance on origins (and "Sons of Origins," etc.) In other kinds of fiction that readers new to comics may be familiar with, it's not necessarily unusual for important parts of a hero's past to remain unrevealed. So new or returning readers may not feel like a mysterious origin is a lapse.

That being said, I'm sure that there ARE some new readers who find the comic too confusing or slow or vague, just as there are some longtime readers who feel that way. Nothing is liked by everyone. Personally, I like the book, and some new readers like Notsuper obviously like it. I'm not at all saying that anyone who doesn't like it is wrong; it's a matter of personal preference.

As you well know by now... I"m one of the readers that finds this vagueness bothersome. No secret.

Ironically enough, the opposite is the very reason I dropped "Supergirl". Once the dust settled and details began to emerge, I became bored and dropped it.

I still do wonder what she does for money. I'd find it curious if they revealed this and then people started to complain about whatever it is she does.

[DracoDracul]

I'm wondering if they are letting Azzerello keep the details vague so that they can more easily ignore his entire run if need be.