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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    Don't care about Batman. There is no need to bring him up. I am talking about Wonder Woman on a Wonder Woman board and about the unfinished feel of her book, not Batmans. Besides, his book did not get a hard reboot like Wonder Woman. He still remained status quo in the nu52.

    And again, don't care about Superman. Don't even read him except for the Justice League. If he can truly bench press planets, than he is more ridiculous than I thought. All I care about is the vagueness of Wonder Womans powers. What will she produce next from her bracers--maybe some ice cream.

    I thought Azz was writing a horror comic that just happened to have Wonder Woman in it. Don't know what you mean by classical heroics. Unless we are talking the vertigo line, I would love for Wonder Woman to get back to being a straight superhero book with the emphasis on her superheroics.
    Well I am sorry but then it's just you who's got unreasonable expectations of a medium that would ultimately cripple itself if it was that specific, because all these things like powers and address' have always been vague:

    Batman always has a plan and a gadget at the ready for just about any situation he gets into, no explanation about how he dreamt up the scenario or developed it, he just has.
    Superman's power has pretty much always been: he's Superman therefore he will have the strength, speed, courage and resolve to save the day.

    I am only using these two, as an example that even characters as old as them, along with Diana and everybody else are always vague and whenever someone sets an actual limit (like Marvel's 100 ton scale for strength), people who come after will either ignore it or come up with a solution to break it. And that's just how it's always been.

    By classical heroics I mean the likes done by Perseus, Odysseus and Heracles.

  2. #212
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Well I am sorry but then it's just you who's got unreasonable expectations of a medium that would ultimately cripple itself if it was that specific, because all these things like powers and address' have always been vague:

    Batman always has a plan and a gadget at the ready for just about any situation he gets into, no explanation about how he dreamt up the scenario or developed it, he just has.
    Superman's power has pretty much always been: he's Superman therefore he will have the strength, speed, courage and resolve to save the day.

    I am only using these two, as an example that even characters as old as them, along with Diana and everybody else are always vague and whenever someone sets an actual limit (like Marvel's 100 ton scale for strength), people who come after will either ignore it or come up with a solution to break it. And that's just how it's always been.

    By classical heroics I mean the likes done by Perseus, Odysseus and Heracles.
    See, here's the thing - the orgin of Batman and Green Lantern didn't change in the nu52. The storylines in their books didn't really skip a beat (GL especially) continued as if nothing had happened.

    Action as I recall recapped Superman's origin, and they've done a pretty good job in his books of nailing down his powers (can bench press 5x the weight of the planet, can learn how to be a surgeon in five minutes, can fly at superspeed, has heat beams and cold breath, etc)

    We still don't know when/how Diana's powers emerged, when/how/why the 'cuffs' were made, what were the circumstances of her leaving Themyscira, etc. How strong is she (ballpark is all I'm looking for), how fast is she, etc?

    None of these questions have been answered yet, tho' over in JL I'm getting a better feel for her powers than I am in her own book, which is kinda sad really :(

  3. #213
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    See, here's the thing - the orgin of Batman and Green Lantern didn't change in the nu52. The storylines in their books didn't really skip a beat (GL especially) continued as if nothing had happened.

    Action as I recall recapped Superman's origin, and they've done a pretty good job in his books of nailing down his powers (can bench press 5x the weight of the planet, can learn how to be a surgeon in five minutes, can fly at superspeed, has heat beams and cold breath, etc)

    We still don't know when/how Diana's powers emerged, when/how/why the 'cuffs' were made, what were the circumstances of her leaving Themyscira, etc. How strong is she (ballpark is all I'm looking for), how fast is she, etc?

    None of these questions have been answered yet, tho' over in JL I'm getting a better feel for her powers than I am in her own book, which is kinda sad really :(
    Nicely stated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    See, here's the thing - the orgin of Batman and Green Lantern didn't change in the nu52. The storylines in their books didn't really skip a beat (GL especially) continued as if nothing had happened.
    Actually Batman's story is an incomprehensible mess because someone decided that all the Robins had to be squashed into the 5 year gap. And both of them are still running around with the question about which stories actually happened. Something like Blackest Night (which we have been told somewhere did happen) can't have happened without it being immensely altered because most of the participants weren't around yet.
    But yes, Bats and GL they did carry on as if Flashpoint didn't happen, but what happened in their past is still in shambles.

    Action as I recall recapped Superman's origin, and they've done a pretty good job in his books of nailing down his powers (can bench press 5x the weight of the planet, can learn how to be a surgeon in five minutes, can fly at superspeed, has heat beams and cold breath, etc)
    Actually he could bench the planet for 5 days straight and apparently only stopped because he figured people would wonder where Clark dissapeared off to. And for all that effort, he only produced 1 sweat drop for that omniscientist woman we've never seen before. (who funds her, where does she live, whats her point?)
    And I wont really calling it nailing them as opposed to call it putting them on display. Like on this board some people were spending the first half year complaining about Diana not displaying any superhuman powers as bluntly as he did.

    We still don't know when/how Diana's powers emerged, when/how/why the 'cuffs' were made, what were the circumstances of her leaving Themyscira, etc. How strong is she (ballpark is all I'm looking for), how fast is she, etc?
    My personal theory is that Azzarello is giving her a reason for her to have these abilities instead of the Perez-explanation of her being blessed from birth, kinda like how Diana gained enhanced eye sight when Athena cured her blindness (I may be remembering that wrong?).
    So now, instead of Diana flying because benevolent Hermes thought it might come in handy one day when she grew up, its because scheming Hermes needed her to fly right then and there for his own reasons.

    None of these questions have been answered yet, tho' over in JL I'm getting a better feel for her powers than I am in her own book, which is kinda sad really :(
    I would argue that Johns is just reading from a list of things he believes Wonder Woman should do before it's been mentioned in her own book, what's annoying me is that he's in such a hurry that we've ended up with this weird situation with two different Wonder Women walking around.

  5. #215
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Actually Batman's story is an incomprehensible mess because someone decided that all the Robins had to be squashed into the 5 year gap. And both of them are still running around with the question about which stories actually happened. Something like Blackest Night (which we have been told somewhere did happen) can't have happened without it being immensely altered because most of the participants weren't around yet.
    But yes, Bats and GL they did carry on as if Flashpoint didn't happen, but what happened in their past is still in shambles.

    Actually he could bench the planet for 5 days straight and apparently only stopped because he figured people would wonder where Clark dissapeared off to. And for all that effort, he only produced 1 sweat drop for that omniscientist woman we've never seen before. (who funds her, where does she live, whats her point?)
    And I wont really calling it nailing them as opposed to call it putting them on display. Like on this board some people were spending the first half year complaining about Diana not displaying any superhuman powers as bluntly as he did.



    My personal theory is that Azzarello is giving her a reason for her to have these abilities instead of the Perez-explanation of her being blessed from birth, kinda like how Diana gained enhanced eye sight when Athena cured her blindness (I may be remembering that wrong?).
    So now, instead of Diana flying because benevolent Hermes thought it might come in handy one day when she grew up, its because scheming Hermes needed her to fly right then and there for his own reasons.



    I would argue that Johns is just reading from a list of things he believes Wonder Woman should do before it's been mentioned in her own book, what's annoying me is that he's in such a hurry that we've ended up with this weird situation with two different Wonder Women walking around.
    DC Continuity as a whole is incomprehensible due to the squishing of decades of history into five years, Batman's moreso than others. However, his origin, supporting cast, and home location remain unchanged.

    GL was given his ring by Abin Sur who crashed and died on Earth and the ring chose the nearest fearless guy - Hal Jordan, test pilot of Coast City where he worked with his buddy Tom and his girlfriend Carol. His powers (when he has a ring these days) are unchanged from pre-nu52.

    Flash is a police scientist in Central City and gained the power of tremendous speed when lightning struck the chemicals and he was doused in them. His old co-worker Patty is now his girlfriend, and Iris is still running around. He is capable of incredible feats of speed and is working to discover the new limits and abilities.

    Superman was a baby rocketed from Krypton by his birth parents Jor-El and Lara-El before it exploded. He crashed in Smallville and was raised on the farm by Ma and Pa Kent where it was disovered that living on this planet gave him incredible powers. He then went off to the Big City of Metropolis where he worked for the Daily Planet with Perry White, Jimmy Olson and Lois Lane. He is superhumanly strong (bench press planet), intelligent (instant surgeon, just add books), and has heat beams, superspeed flight, and frost breath.

    Diana was born on Themyscira after her mother had a secret adulterous affair with the god, Zeus. She discovered her powers....? She had to have her strength put in check by (presumably Hephaestus) with magical cuffs because/when....? She was trained by the Amazons and also by the god of war Ares until one day when Steve Trevor came to the island and....? She can fly/hover (?) at an unknown speed, is strong enough to knock down trees with the cuffs on and beat a goddess of undetermined strength and combat abilities (we really have no gauge for the Greek gods in the nu52), has a lasso which makes you tell the truth, swords that come out of her cuffs and can take a punch from a god (see previous comment on god power levels)

    She is incredibly undefined by comic book/superhero standards. I don't see that Geoff is in a hurry - it seems more to me that Azzarello stated he's not bothering with any of that measly comic book superhero stuff as he's writing a horror book, and so if Geoff doesn't do it, nobody does.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Diana was born on Themyscira after her mother had a secret adulterous affair with the god, Zeus. She discovered her powers....? She had to have her strength put in check by (presumably Hephaestus) with magical cuffs because/when....? She was trained by the Amazons and also by the god of war Ares until one day when Steve Trevor came to the island and....? She can fly/hover (?) at an unknown speed, is strong enough to knock down trees with the cuffs on and beat a goddess of undetermined strength and combat abilities (we really have no gauge for the Greek gods in the nu52), has a lasso which makes you tell the truth, swords that come out of her cuffs and can take a punch from a god (see previous comment on god power levels)

    She is incredibly undefined by comic book/superhero standards. I don't see that Geoff is in a hurry - it seems more to me that Azzarello stated he's not bothering with any of that measly comic book superhero stuff as he's writing a horror book, and so if Geoff doesn't do it, nobody does.
    This is the curse of current DC. It isn't like they cleared the decks of backstory to tell the tales of brand new characters that superficially resemble their namesakes. It's more like they're telling stories that presume an extensive backstory, only they haven't told the readers what that is. I've been strung along too long. And this is what happens when you put a writer on a superhero title who comes from a background where he learned to sneer at superheroes.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  7. #217
    Senior Member lariatofhestia's Avatar
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    Actually I am sure I read somewhere Geoff spoke to Azz and asked him if this is how he thought Diana would react to a certain situation. I think Azz said yes. Given that Azz said Diana is impulsive, I have yet to really see her act really impulsive in her own title. She seems like a mature WW than a young one. She does act more her age in JL even if some want to call it moronic. I don't expect 23 year olds to act like know it all controlled mother figures. I expect some floundering. The JL are only now getting to be the JL we know as well. So I expect to see every character develop over time. And if Azz wants to drag his story I really don't see why Geoff needs to wait for him. Much of Diana's powerset etc, her life could have easily been settled in earlier issues. We are going into 16 issues and still up in the air about many things. Compared to Superman who has a similar hard reboot, we know a lot of the foundations of his story from Action. Morrison is wrapping up in a couple of issues. And you'd have gotten 5 years of foundation, events and characterization any writer could then take up and play and build with. Diana is...how many days or weeks have passed?...and we have so many questions on the most basic stuff.
    Last edited by lariatofhestia; 01-07-2013 at 11:42 AM.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    DC Continuity as a whole is incomprehensible due to the squishing of decades of history into five years, Batman's moreso than others. However, his origin, supporting cast, and home location remain unchanged.

    GL was given his ring by Abin Sur who crashed and died on Earth and the ring chose the nearest fearless guy - Hal Jordan, test pilot of Coast City where he worked with his buddy Tom and his girlfriend Carol. His powers (when he has a ring these days) are unchanged from pre-nu52.
    That's what we assume anyway's.

    Diana was born on Themyscira after her mother had a secret adulterous affair with the god, Zeus. She discovered her powers....?
    Presumably because all Amazons have some level of superhuman levels of strength and durability. Since she easily knocks over trees when angered, so it's a fair assumption she's not in anyway gentle when she punched her halfway abusive childhood bully: Aleka in the head and it didn't disintegrate.

    She was trained by the Amazons and also by the god of war Ares until one day when Steve Trevor came to the island and....?
    She left with him to save him from the others, according to the interview transcript at the back of JL #1 or 2.

    She had to have her strength put in check by (presumably Hephaestus) with magical cuffs because/when....?
    Since she whipped out God-Mode knowingly in #12, she would have received them after it popped up the first time. Btw, Hephaestus does say in #15 that he is the creator, which is why he feels permitted to tinker with them.

    She can fly/hover (?) at an unknown speed, is strong enough to knock down trees with the cuffs on and beat a goddess of undetermined strength and combat abilities (we really have no gauge for the Greek gods in the nu52), has a lasso which makes you tell the truth, swords that come out of her cuffs and can take a punch from a god (see previous comment on god power levels)
    Yes, that sounds about as undefined as Superman is. You don't know how strong he is, you dont know how fast he is, you dont know how cold his breath is, how hot his eyes are; all you really know is that they are there.

    (forgot bullet deflecting reflexes btw)

    She is incredibly undefined by comic book/superhero standards.
    I am almost tempted to ask that if you (and others) were as passionate as Flash fans as you are WW fans, if you then would be demanding to know the mix, quantity and voltage needed to create a Flash?
    That said, hasn't most of the Flash books since the relaunch been one constant stretch of what being super fast means?

    I don't see that Geoff is in a hurry - it seems more to me that Azzarello stated he's not bothering with any of that measly comic book superhero stuff as he's writing a horror book, and so if Geoff doesn't do it, nobody does.
    Johns is not in a hurry? Really? How many stories has he completed so far in JL? 5?
    Not to mention he's failed to add character, wit, charm, brains or anything even remotely human to the cast.

  9. #219
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    DC Continuity as a whole is incomprehensible due to the squishing of decades of history into five years, Batman's moreso than others. However, his origin, supporting cast, and home location remain unchanged.

    GL was given his ring by Abin Sur who crashed and died on Earth and the ring chose the nearest fearless guy - Hal Jordan, test pilot of Coast City where he worked with his buddy Tom and his girlfriend Carol. His powers (when he has a ring these days) are unchanged from pre-nu52.

    Flash is a police scientist in Central City and gained the power of tremendous speed when lightning struck the chemicals and he was doused in them. His old co-worker Patty is now his girlfriend, and Iris is still running around. He is capable of incredible feats of speed and is working to discover the new limits and abilities.

    Superman was a baby rocketed from Krypton by his birth parents Jor-El and Lara-El before it exploded. He crashed in Smallville and was raised on the farm by Ma and Pa Kent where it was disovered that living on this planet gave him incredible powers. He then went off to the Big City of Metropolis where he worked for the Daily Planet with Perry White, Jimmy Olson and Lois Lane. He is superhumanly strong (bench press planet), intelligent (instant surgeon, just add books), and has heat beams, superspeed flight, and frost breath.

    Diana was born on Themyscira after her mother had a secret adulterous affair with the god, Zeus. She discovered her powers....? She had to have her strength put in check by (presumably Hephaestus) with magical cuffs because/when....? She was trained by the Amazons and also by the god of war Ares until one day when Steve Trevor came to the island and....? She can fly/hover (?) at an unknown speed, is strong enough to knock down trees with the cuffs on and beat a goddess of undetermined strength and combat abilities (we really have no gauge for the Greek gods in the nu52), has a lasso which makes you tell the truth, swords that come out of her cuffs and can take a punch from a god (see previous comment on god power levels)

    She is incredibly undefined by comic book/superhero standards. I don't see that Geoff is in a hurry - it seems more to me that Azzarello stated he's not bothering with any of that measly comic book superhero stuff as he's writing a horror book, and so if Geoff doesn't do it, nobody does.
    Again, nicely said. You are echoing alot of my sentiments in previous posts and for that I salute you

  10. #220
    Senior Member Superdog's Avatar
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    TBH not knowing Batman's mile record, bench press record or IQ has never hurt any Batman story. Nor does not knowing what exactly what he got up to between his parents dying and Year One. Exactly how much wealth does Batman have? How far from Gotham is Wayne Manor? How many batmobiles does he have? I have no idea, nor do I care.
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    That feeling of incompleteness is why I'm not going to even bother looking for the second trade when its out. After six issue I didn't care about any of the characters in the book.

  12. #222
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superdog View Post
    TBH not knowing Batman's mile record, bench press record or IQ has never hurt any Batman story. Nor does not knowing what exactly what he got up to between his parents dying and Year One. Exactly how much wealth does Batman have? How far from Gotham is Wayne Manor? How many batmobiles does he have? I have no idea, nor do I care.
    Well, Batman is a 'top level normal human athlete'.

    We know how and why he became Batman.

    We have no idea how and why Diana became Wonder Woman. She was dressed in the costume as a girl, but why? Just because she was so strong? Or was there more to it? Did she fight for the right to take Steve home? Or did she fight to defend him and flee home guarding him? Where and why did the costume come from?

    I'm not asking for a benchpress number - I just want to know if she has Alpha level 'Superman' strength or if she's been bumped down. Can she keep up with Superman and Flash? Or is she slower now? Does she hover or does she fly? ;)

    I don't care what her address is in London or what she drives - I would like to know why London, though, since she had originally come back to the US with Steve.

    I just want a bit more definition - not minutiae or detailed specifics.

  13. #223
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    That's what we assume anyway's.
    That's what Geoff Johns has said. GL and Batman continued their storylines from pre-DCnu without missing a beat. Continuity may be tangled, but these characters are untouched by the 'non-reboot' ;)

    Presumably because all Amazons have some level of superhuman levels of strength and durability. Since she easily knocks over trees when angered, so it's a fair assumption she's not in anyway gentle when she punched her halfway abusive childhood bully: Aleka in the head and it didn't disintegrate.
    We have no idea if the Amazons have any powers at all. We have not seen any Amazon perform any feat of strength. Keyword in your reply here is 'Presumably.' We can all speculate - we haven't been given an actual answer.

    She left with him to save him from the others, according to the interview transcript at the back of JL #1 or 2.
    Why would she turn her back on everyone and everything she has ever known for a stranger? Where did the costume come from? Where did the name 'Wonder Woman' come from? These are some key aspects of a hero origin, imo.

    Since she whipped out God-Mode knowingly in #12, she would have received them after it popped up the first time. Btw, Hephaestus does say in #15 that he is the creator, which is why he feels permitted to tinker with them.
    Hephaestus made them, but was it his idea? Or did Athena commission them? Did Zeus order them? Did Hippolyta beg for them? Did Diana want them? Again, you can assume and speculate over the circumstances, but we have no actual answers.

    Yes, that sounds about as undefined as Superman is. You don't know how strong he is, you dont know how fast he is, you dont know how cold his breath is, how hot his eyes are; all you really know is that they are there.
    We have seen Superman bench press the weight of the Earth. We have seen him fly hundreds if not thousands of miles in mere seconds. We have seen his eyebeams turn massive amounts of salt water to steam in an instant. We have seen his frost breath put out fires in one puff. We have details that we are lacking on Diana.

    (forgot bullet deflecting reflexes btw)
    Correct, this was my mistake and one of the only powers we have actually seen defined pretty well - she can deflect multiple automatic weapons at the same time.

    I am almost tempted to ask that if you (and others) were as passionate as Flash fans as you are WW fans, if you then would be demanding to know the mix, quantity and voltage needed to create a Flash?
    I am not asking at all for that level of detail. In her own book, the biggest 'feat of strength' I think we've seen is knocking down trees. We've at least seen her catch several hundred thousand tons side-by-side with Superman in JL. I'm not asking anyone to tell us the exact number - I want a ballpark. Is she still 'faster than Hermes? Stronger than Hercules?' Something to give us an idea of her 'weight class,' so to speak.

    That said, hasn't most of the Flash books since the relaunch been one constant stretch of what being super fast means?
    I've always thought Flash kinda stretched it ;) However, the point is, you can read the new origin and say how fast he can run because Manapul has written that he ran from here to there in a fraction of a second. (I just can't remember off the top of my head)

    Johns is not in a hurry? Really? How many stories has he completed so far in JL? 5?
    Not to mention he's failed to add character, wit, charm, brains or anything even remotely human to the cast.
    Don't get me wrong - I don't like how Johns is writing her, nor do I think he's not communicating with Azzarello. I think from what I've read that Azzarello has said he's (a) writing a horror book and (b) has no interest in these kinds of details, leaving it to Johns to provide these details in JL.

  14. #224

    Default my 2 cents:

    Though I agree with much of the criticism, I wouldn't really use the word "unfinished." Instead, I'd say the story is dragging. For me, it's a bit like a watered-down soup - not enough meat per issue. For my money, I feel I've learned much more about Superman and his world via Action Comics.

    For starters, there's not enough WW in WW (not that we're getting indepth characterization for ANY of the characters). It reminds me of when Marvel first launched the Ultimate line - creators were in such a hury to introduce the "Ultimate version" that the story become more of a tour around the quick Ultimate world (and didn't make for the best stories).

    True, we don't know exactly how far Wayne Manor is from the Court House or whatever, and we don't know exactly how fast Bruce can run the 100m. On the other hand, we know why Bruce is in Gotham and don't have a story where Bruce suddenly flies (without using gadgets) leaving us to scratch our heads asking, "Where did this come from and why didn't he fly before?"

    Whether or not one is enjoying the story and doesn't care about some of the unanswered questions, I have a hard time believing anyone can make a strong case that this story isn't very decompressed even in the age of decompression. Sparse, vague, shallow, and all around subtleness are NOT qualities being used judiciously. ;)
    Last edited by americanwonder; 01-07-2013 at 04:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    That's what Geoff Johns has said. GL and Batman continued their storylines from pre-DCnu without missing a beat. Continuity may be tangled, but these characters are untouched by the 'non-reboot' ;)
    Well GJ has said alot of things, like NTT remained in the past...and suddenly they weren't :S

    We have no idea if the Amazons have any powers at all. We have not seen any Amazon perform any feat of strength. Keyword in your reply here is 'Presumably.' We can all speculate - we haven't been given an actual answer.
    Exoristos out of Demon Knight does have superhuman levels of strength, enough to knock several tons of dinosaur over with a single blow.
    But you are right that I assume all Amazons are like that, but that (as usual, you might say) the Amazons tendencies towards red shirts and not being around makes it difficult to prove.

    Why would she turn her back on everyone and everything she has ever known for a stranger? Where did the costume come from? Where did the name 'Wonder Woman' come from? These are some key aspects of a hero origin, imo.
    I'd point out Aleka and her cronies might have made Diana wish she could be somewhere else, perhaps to prove to them that she was more than 'clay' and the Flashpoint WW left PI in search of adventure.
    I can ofc guess how she got the armor; stole it, as she did the in JL cartoon, or perhaps she's been wearing it long before Steve showed up, considering the similarities between hers and Hippolyta's armors. But yes, thats just guessing on my part.
    The name 'Wonder Woman'...wasnt that something the newspapers came up with by misreading the eagle/ww motiff on her chest the same way they dubbed Superman based on the S?

    Hephaestus made them, but was it his idea? Or did Athena commission them? Did Zeus order them? Did Hippolyta beg for them? Did Diana want them? Again, you can assume and speculate over the circumstances, but we have no actual answers.
    You could ask the same line to Batmans arsenal; which ones did he come up with, which one did Lucius make, was it someone else. How does the Bat cave recieve supplies of items thats too big to fit in the Batmobile without notice and so on.

    We have seen Superman bench press the weight of the Earth. We have seen him fly hundreds if not thousands of miles in mere seconds. We have seen his eyebeams turn massive amounts of salt water to steam in an instant. We have seen his frost breath put out fires in one puff. We have details that we are lacking on Diana.
    I think we have different perceptions of what 'defined' means.
    To me Superman's powers are not defined. They've been put on display, but they will never be defined as long as he never reaches a limit.
    The performance of a far isn't defined either by saying: "It can go extremely fast under optimal conditions." It's defined when you can say: "Under optimal conditions it can go 405 km/h."

    My point to this that is that, yes it will set a new benchmark for Diana's strength level if we saw her pick up a mountain in her own book, but it doesn't make her any more defined if she did unless it's noted down somewhere that it was the limit of what she can do. But as I've said before, you wont get limits in comicbooks because writers are prone to ignore them in favor of simply balancing the scale between heroes and villains (Superman is fast, but Flash will always be faster).

    I am not asking at all for that level of detail. In her own book, the biggest 'feat of strength' I think we've seen is knocking down trees. We've at least seen her catch several hundred thousand tons side-by-side with Superman in JL. I'm not asking anyone to tell us the exact number - I want a ballpark. Is she still 'faster than Hermes? Stronger than Hercules?' Something to give us an idea of her 'weight class,' so to speak.
    I can understand that but my argument is that it seems some people would want these feats here and now, regardless if they fit into the story currently being told. I know I've said this a lot but, as a fan of substance over flash, I am willing to wait till a situation arises in the story where these things get their time, but I get some are impatient in this regard.
    Perhaps we will get a measure of her strength if they get into a proper fight with Orion? Or perhaps we will have to wait till she meets the First Born.

    I've always thought Flash kinda stretched it ;) However, the point is, you can read the new origin and say how fast he can run because Manapul has written that he ran from here to there in a fraction of a second. (I just can't remember off the top of my head)
    Technically you can say; he can at least run this fast :)
    Don't get me wrong - I don't like how Johns is writing her, nor do I think he's not communicating with Azzarello. I think from what I've read that Azzarello has said he's (a) writing a horror book and (b) has no interest in these kinds of details, leaving it to Johns to provide these details in JL.
    I think it's more the tones that differ between their writing.
    Johns spits out stories at a rapid pace, they aren't particularly deep (if ever), but they lend themselves well to traditional stand-up 'punch the bad guy in the head and save the world in an awesome fashion'. And as such his stories lend themselves well to spectacular displays of power (such as catching the carrier).
    Azzarello on the other hand writes his as you would a horror story, one of the good ones. The pace is lumbering, you barely ever see what you are really up against, the atmosphere is oppressive and most likely not all of you are going to survive. However given that it is a story featuring Wonder Woman, the horror is somewhat defanged as she doesn't get terrified and most things she can just punch through the wall if needed (another reason to keep the fights to a minimum, she'd just win them). But also because she is who she is, I can almost guarantee what when she finally reaches the end of all this, the fight will be epic (and probably end tragic).

    So I'd say it's not so much details but spectacles Johns is giving us and Azzarello's story generally just doesn't accommodate spectacles very well. The same way a classical piece of music doesn't accommodate randomly inserted 5 second bits of gandamn style :)

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