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  1. #166
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    See, I just don't get this attitude where comics writers are considered better judged on how many story beats they manage to cram into a page. It makes for extraordinarily bad, unreadable comics.
    If you are referring to the Jimenez pages above, we are clearly not going to agree.

    It is not the only way to judge the quality of a book, but it is certainly one of them. People talk about how comics are a dying industry. Perhaps the publishers should question why since the 1980s many comic cost at least three times more for half as much.

    And clearly comic with more beats per page are not neccessarily extrordinarily bad or unreadable, since the industry have survived to this point with a long history of such publications. Some of which, like the Dark Phoenix saga, are now considered classics of the genre.

    As an example...



    If this page were written and drawn now, it would have taken at least three pages. After all, there is no way modern writers would let that final blast go by with anything less than a full page splash, maybe even a double. The dialogue before and after would have been spread over seperate pages either side.

    Thing is, you have just cut into two pages of the book and the other pages have their own emotional beats that would demand expanded telling - the battle between Colossus and Gladiator for example, and Jean and Scotts last stand. By the time moders creative teams were done the book would have stretched out over four issues [it was already double sized, after all] and might still have bits trimmed.

    Would having the page above expanded like that have made the story better? I personally dont think so.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-08-2012 at 07:23 AM.
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  2. #167
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    See, I just don't get this attitude where comics writers are considered better judged on how many story beats they manage to cram into a page. It makes for extraordinarily bad, unreadable comics.
    Good story and more story aren't mutually exclusive.

    The 'decompressed' method of story telling is widespread, and six to twelve issue arcs are, imo, out of control. Writing for trades means there are issues that are entirely 'bridges' in the story, and that often makes for a lousy stand alone issue.

    Two to four issue arcs used to be the standard, which also made it easier for new readers to jump in. For older readers like myself and The Husband, it's obvious that the older style was more story per book just by how long it takes us to read anything nowadays. Editors are forcing writers to 'stretch' their arcs, which can kill momentum and bore the reader.

    Putting more story into one book does not make for 'bad, unreadable' comics any more than saying less story per book automatically makes it a 'good, readable' book. However, pacing has gotten slower in the industry over the years and splash pages, which used to be reserved for 'the big moment' have become commonplace. 6-9 panels per page has been replaced by 1-6 panels per page, generally giving us less story per book as a whole.

    There should be a nice middle ground somewhere, but the editors/people in charge don't seem to care anymore.

  3. #168
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Good story and more story aren't mutually exclusive.

    The 'decompressed' method of story telling is widespread, and six to twelve issue arcs are, imo, out of control. Writing for trades means there are issues that are entirely 'bridges' in the story, and that often makes for a lousy stand alone issue.

    Two to four issue arcs used to be the standard, which also made it easier for new readers to jump in. For older readers like myself and The Husband, it's obvious that the older style was more story per book just by how long it takes us to read anything nowadays. Editors are forcing writers to 'stretch' their arcs, which can kill momentum and bore the reader.

    Putting more story into one book does not make for 'bad, unreadable' comics any more than saying less story per book automatically makes it a 'good, readable' book. However, pacing has gotten slower in the industry over the years and splash pages, which used to be reserved for 'the big moment' have become commonplace. 6-9 panels per page has been replaced by 1-6 panels per page, generally giving us less story per book as a whole.

    There should be a nice middle ground somewhere, but the editors/people in charge don't seem to care anymore.
    I bought Azzarello's run in trade, and it reads alot better than being fed a miniscule amount per month due to the decompression. To be fair, it's not just him. It's the whole industry in general. The last time I read Superman (nu52) I found that it wasn't decompressed though, which didn't make it necessarily a better read, but then I'm not really into Superman and/or it just didn't interest me that much so I found myself skipping word balloons that didn't "look" important.

    I have an online comic that I haven't updated in quite some time, and I was going through a process of adjustment in trying to find the right balance, but it's free to read.. so no skin off anyone's back.

  4. #169
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreus View Post
    Yes, way too much writing. I agree.
    She's giving speeches or interviews in all those pages...those use words.
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  5. #170
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don-Jack View Post
    This is a fine example of excessive writting:



    There is even a floating head.
    This is one of the worst examples of the Great Princession that followed the Perez Era.

    It's during what I call 'the Princession' that Wonder Woman becomes a pretension to high literature, ..who, between her grand speeches about world peace, battles the most celebrated figures (Circe) or monsters from classical and world mythology. It's during this time that your fellow Wondy fans would remind you that, "Wonder Woman isn't really a superhero, like the rest. She's a champion of Gaea..or an avatar of the goddesses..or an ambassador for peace..or a world leader..or a dignitary..or a spiritual teacher..or a diva..or..."

    Anything, but, superhero. Superheroing's not good enough for her, ..and, if you don't absolutely love it, neither are you. AND you're a neanderthal.

    It's during the Great Princession that writers forgot that George Perez's indulgence of Greek mythology, according to Perez himself, was only intended to re-introduce Wonder Woman to the comic book world, ..showcasing the heroic fantasy elements that he felt made her unique. Suddenly, Wonder Woman's mythological background and Amazon beliefs seemed to dominate everything she did - who she loved, fought, how and where she lived. Being a full-blooded Amazon, created by Greek goddesses, this new Wonder Woman could only relate to other women, with whom she wasted entire pages hugging or preaching to or crying with, ..and that got boring really fast. Apparently, men and boys, even hotshot AF pilots, were corrupt, tainted beings, unworthy of her friendship, who could not be trusted.

    You know...like on the Lifetime Channel.

    It was during the Princession, after Perez's departure from the title, that we got stuck with Circe (just a creepy evil sorceress, pre-Crisis), whom Perez wisely and very thoroughly blew up, at the end of that horrid maxiseries, War Of The Gods, ..as Wonder Woman's mythology-rooted archnemesis. Costumed in Classical Greek and Roman dress, Circe was a shrill, prancing cliche of silver screen seductresses, ..whose lunatic ramblings made Batman villains seem sensible, by comparison. George Perez didn't just blow Circe up; near the end of WOGs, he introduced another villain, Hecate, to claim Circe's soul! It was a violent death that left Circe a soulless shell AND destroyed her physical body, leaving nothing for writers to bring back, ..clearing the narrative highway for new Wonder Woman writers to take the comic in a new direction and to move beyond its myth-oriented comeback. The commercial failure of WOGs should have been the end of Circe, as a major villain, ..but, the writers of the Great Princession brought Circe back, anyway! When every promotional item and comic (Who's Who specials, WW coloring books, coffeetable books, fan encyclopedias, etc.) offered Circe, as the Lex Luthor, Joker or Doctor Doom of the Wonderverse, ..it was all downhill from there.

    It was during this Great Princession, when writers forgot how to make Wonder Woman fun.

    And when the five teenaged boys, angry at their fathers, realized that they were the only ones, who liked this comic the way it was and wanted to keep it that way ..forever, they started flame wars in online forums and alienated Wondy's fan base. Fans, like myself, stopped reading Wonder Woman, and sales went into the toilet, spurring DC Comics to take Wondy in yet another...

    Bold, new direction. And here, we are.

    I am so grateful for Brian Azzarello's Wondy, even with all its flaws, when I read these comics from the Luke and Jimenez period.
    Last edited by MelDyer; 12-27-2012 at 01:31 PM. Reason: clarity, more
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  6. #171
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    It was during this Great Princession, when writers forgot how to make Wonder Woman fun.
    The way you write, it seems as if you just weren't reading the book by the time Rucka took over. And until the current, historically unique abomination, Rucka was the nadir of Wonder Woman writing, a Wonder Woman who definitely was no fun. She was defined by her lofty status as princess and ambassador. Each story arc was in essence a rerun of Hiketeia; Diana was boxed into a corner and had to do something drastic (like blind herself or kill Maxwell Lord) to escape. The optimism of Perez's version was completely discarded; Wonder Woman became another tragic figure boxed in by Greek mythology and ritual. I've always thought that Rucka was writing the backstory for the Kingdom Come elseworld version of Wonder Woman: embittered for being doomed to fail at an impossible task.

    I thought it couldn't get worse after Rucka. I guess I was wrong.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  7. #172
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    The way you write, it seems as if you just weren't reading the book by the time Rucka took over. And until the current, historically unique abomination, Rucka was the nadir of Wonder Woman writing, a Wonder Woman who definitely was no fun. She was defined by her lofty status as princess and ambassador. Each story arc was in essence a rerun of Hiketeia; Diana was boxed into a corner and had to do something drastic (like blind herself or kill Maxwell Lord) to escape. The optimism of Perez's version was completely discarded; Wonder Woman became another tragic figure boxed in by Greek mythology and ritual. I've always thought that Rucka was writing the backstory for the Kingdom Come elseworld version of Wonder Woman: embittered for being doomed to fail at an impossible task.
    I never reflected too much on the whole of Ruckas run, but that seems essentially correct. Mind you he was leading up to Infinite Crisis.

    I think there are similarities in Azzarello's run, in that he has said openly they are going to break her down to rebuild her, which honestly seems a terribly common theme with WW these days. JMS did the same thing.
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  8. #173
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think there are similarities in Azzarello's run, in that he has said openly they are going to break her down to rebuild her, which honestly seems a terribly common theme with WW these days. JMS did the same thing.
    It seems terribly common with a great many DC heroes, it would seem.

    And for some reason those writers sadly are never allowed to get into the building back up part of things. I am still wondering why Rucka was removed from the book. His sales were increasing, it was a critical success as well, there wore a dozen new plot threads dangling...
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  9. #174
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    It seems terribly common with a great many DC heroes, it would seem.

    And for some reason those writers sadly are never allowed to get into the building back up part of things. I am still wondering why Rucka was removed from the book. His sales were increasing, it was a critical success as well, there wore a dozen new plot threads dangling...
    Yeah, I'm expecting Azzarello to be thrown off the book, too.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Yeah, I'm expecting Azzarello to be thrown off the book, too.
    Depends on how long he wants to stay around. If he's planning to wrap up his epic around issue 24 or so, I think DC will be fine with that. If he planning on a full third year, and if sales continue to taper down even at a slow pace or if DC is anxious to involve WOnder WOman in crossovers in which he isn't interested in, then they might decide they need a new creative team.

    I also think Wonder Woman has been mostly in the "building back" phase since issue 10.

    With Rucka, I always had the impression that it was more of a "Creative differences" think--like, maybe he wanted to further explore the ramifications of killing Max, but DC wanted to quickly move past that?

  11. #176

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    Well, the higher-ups at DC seem pretty keen on Azz's run and Didio and Johns appear to be big fans of it, so it's possible Azz may even have Wonder Woman for as long as Morrison has had Batman or Johns has had Green Lantern.

  12. #177
    Guardian of Love Sailor Moon's Avatar
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    Yeah, I feel the same way about Rucka, too. His entire run was more or less well written, but it was very frustrating for me to read because it always seemed to end up in that lose-lose situation for WW in one way or another. I sort of appreciate what he was doing with it, very nontraditional, but still, frustrating as a reader.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    Well, the higher-ups at DC seem pretty keen on Azz's run and Didio and Johns appear to be big fans of it, so it's possible Azz may even have Wonder Woman for as long as Morrison has had Batman or Johns has had Green Lantern.
    It depends on sales, though. Morrison's Batman was a megasuccess, and Johns really grew into one (I don't know if it had as much success in the beginning, though). So far, even though it had a pretty good spike in the beginning, Azz's WW has continued to go down as far as to my knowledge (not sure on the last few issues, not been keeping up that closely). Really, it does seem to be mirroring Rucka's run in that sense. A series that has a lot of critical claim and, despite controversial elements, seems to be liked by a decent amount of fans online, but the sales aren't as great as you'd expect. If they fall down too low, I can see them deciding to put someone else on even if it's a favorite behind the scenes, too.

  13. #178
    New Member TrekkieGal's Avatar
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    Common factor to any good story is not to lose details. I'm not qualified to answer how good the story is because I am biased, with one of the reasoning being the sloppiness of Brian Azzarello. Now I concur to all who say these minor details have nothing to do with the story, but I prefer a good cup of coffee rather then just a cup of coffee.

  14. #179
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Depends on how long he wants to stay around. If he's planning to wrap up his epic around issue 24 or so, I think DC will be fine with that. If he planning on a full third year, and if sales continue to taper down even at a slow pace or if DC is anxious to involve WOnder WOman in crossovers in which he isn't interested in, then they might decide they need a new creative team.

    I also think Wonder Woman has been mostly in the "building back" phase since issue 10.

    With Rucka, I always had the impression that it was more of a "Creative differences" think--like, maybe he wanted to further explore the ramifications of killing Max, but DC wanted to quickly move past that?
    Everything I have heard about it suggests Rucka pitched the idea to DC as a year long arc involving Diana, Clark, and Bruce. DC green lighted it then bailed.

    But at least Azzarello has no major creative differences with Johns in how they write the character and intergrate her in the wider world.

    Oh wait...
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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  15. #180
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don-Jack View Post


    This is a perfect example of what I used to love about Diana as Wonder Woman, and why I really do not care at all about the current Xenia the Wonder Warrior Princess. It's been 2+/2- for me with the New 52 in that I've loved getting Batgirl back along with the changes to Alan Scott's Green Lantern, but am saddened by the loss of purity in spirit and frankly intellect in both Wonder Woman and Shazam.
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