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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera
    It's why we're 15 issues in, and no resolution to our story.
    I like that we're getting a long, epic story, but I don't think it's because of some wordless or near-wordless pages. Those pages could have been cluttered with words ("Meanwhile, a hooded figure approaches the horses in the young woman's stables. "Now you will serve me against your mistress." After the flash of the the blade, the horses slaugthered writhe with a supernatural agony, as if stirred by some new force in place of their sundered lived.") without having the story move any faster. Take out the words from the Thor with the "thousand words" that Brett posted upthread, and the story wouldn't move any slwoer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    By the same token, I'd HATE a words-only page too! LOL. I'd skip it!
    I sort of liked the Steve Trevor/Amanda Waller debriefing text piece in Justice League 2. It certainly gave us a lot to talk about (though it would probably would have been more impactful if integrated into a story and not just made a stand-alone back-up). . There was a good text piece (a celebrity profile/interview of Buddy) in Animal Man #1. I can imagine how the article Lois was writing could have worked well as a text piece in the Rucka issue from which Don-Jack gave us pages. Or we could have gotten a full page excerpt from one of Diana's speeches. It's something that should be done only occasionally, though.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    No, I am not dishonest, because I honestly think this is fairly normal - not just at the end of a comic but all the way through.

    Look issue #5 of Justice League. Or even #8 through #10 of Wonder Woman. Big panels with little text are the in thing.
    Then post a scan from Justice League #5 or #8-10.
    New X-Men #131 is not in any way at all symptomatic of what you're pointing out.
    Pretty much nothing Morrison writes is. He tends to write cluttered, filled-to-the-brim, hyper-condensed books, and when he uses pages like that, there tends to be a very good reason for it.
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I like that we're getting a long, epic story, but I don't think it's because of some wordless or near-wordless pages. Those pages could have been cluttered with words ("Meanwhile, a hooded figure approaches the horses in the young woman's stables. "Now you will serve me against your mistress." After the flash of the the blade, the horses slaugthered writhe with a supernatural agony, as if stirred by some new force in place of their sundered lived.") without having the story move any faster. Take out the words from the Thor with the "thousand words" that Brett posted upthread, and the story wouldn't move any slwoer.
    In 15 issues of Thor...

    Beta Ray Bill beat Thor for the hammer.
    He beat Thor again.
    Sif vented her frustration at not having a war to fight.
    Balder was stricken with melancholia.
    Surtur appeared and released Malekith from prison.
    Bill got a new hammer.
    Sif fought demons with Bills ship.
    Thor and Bill sealed the demon gate that destroyed Bills home.
    Fafnir escaped.
    Lorelei and Agnar are introduced.
    The spell allowing Thor to turn to Don Blake is put in Bills hammer.
    Sif leaves with Bill.
    We first see the goats of Thor.
    Thor establishes a new mortal identity helped by Nick Fury.
    He is attacked by Fafnir and drives him off.
    Lorelei and Thor meet.
    One of Odins ravens is killed seeking information.
    Balder travels to Loki on a mission from Odin and kills him instead [temporarily].
    Loki agrees to help Malekiths master.
    Thor travles to antarctica and finds Eiliff the lost.
    He and Eiliff confront and defeant Fafnir - huge battle issue.
    Balder meets the Fates.
    Malekith hunts the casket of ancient winters using enspelled mortals.
    He kills the guardian but the box is passe to his son.
    Thor fights Malekith and the Wild Hunt on the Brooklyn Bridge.
    Lorelei is kidnapped by Malekith.
    Thor drinks Loreleis love potion and charges after her.
    He and he gaurdian [Roger] invade Svartalfheim.
    They rescue Lorelei and defeat Malekith, but he destroys the box.
    The winter is released over the whole world [in EVERY marvel title]
    Surtur invades our universe with an army of fire demons.
    Thor travls to Asgard and we learn the story of Odins brothers.
    Odin summons Bill and Sif back to Asgard
    Balder travels to Karnilla the norn queen.
    Thor leads the Asgardian army and theb Avengers against Surtur. [crossovers everywhere]
    Surtur destroys the rainbow bridge and defeats Hemdall and Thor.
    The children of Volstagg protect Frigga as they leave Asgard.
    The battle on Earth rages.
    Odin and Surtur fight - HUGE COSMIC SMACKDOWN!
    New York is a mass of demons, vikings, superheroes and helicopter gunships.
    Odin is beaten by the ancient winter enchantment.
    OMG - WE ARE GOING TO LOSE!!!!
    Surtur is stopped from lighting his sword and destorying the universe by - LOKI! Oh the treachery.
    Loki fights Surtur.
    Witty banter galore.
    He loses.
    The Asgardians, Avengers and FF win in New York and cofront the demon army in the Sahara.
    Roger reconstructs the casket [helped by Johnny Storm]
    Odin if freed.
    Thor is up.
    Loki is back.
    ITS ON!!!!
    Balder arrives with the Norn Army in the nick of time.
    The demons are driven back to Muslpelheim.
    Thor disarms Surtur.
    Odin gets big. REALLY BIG.
    Odin and Surtur fight.
    Thor and Loki topple Surtur into the pit of Muspelheim.
    Odin follows him in to prevent his return.
    FATHER!!!!

    ...pant pant pant...

    And thats not even all of it LOL
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-05-2012 at 04:18 AM.
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Then post a scan from Justice League #5 or #8-10.
    New X-Men #131 is not in any way at all symptomatic of what you're pointing out.
    Pretty much nothing Morrison writes is. He tends to write cluttered, filled-to-the-brim, hyper-condensed books, and when he uses pages like that, there tends to be a very good reason for it.




    Last edited by brettc1; 12-05-2012 at 04:32 AM.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    In 15 issues of Thor...
    ...
    ..pant pant pant...

    And thats not even all of it LOL
    Like that "next issue" blurb from the "last Norseman" issue said, it must all be really tiny. :)

    Anyway, I was talking about specifically about the "thousands spears" pages and noting that the story on that page wouldn't have moved any slower without words. I'm not saying that Simonson's Thor, taken as a whole, had the same pace as Azzarello's Wonder Woman. I don't particularly want Wonder Woman to consistently move at Simonson's pace. It may have been fine for Simonson's Thor, I don't see why it would necessarily be desirable for this run of Wonder Woman right now. I don't think comic books should be priced by the word or even by the story beat; I'm paying for quality, not quantity. Epics are allowed to--even supposed to--take a long and winding road. I'm plenty satisfied with
    --Apollo's oracles prophesy a catalclysmic struggle between the gods;
    ---Hera tries to kill Zola;
    --Hermes is wounded while trying to protect Zola;
    --Zola is revealed to be the mother of Zeus' unborn child;
    --it is revealed that Zeus "doesn't exist yet";
    --we are introduced to the reimagined Amazons;
    --we meet Diana's childhood would-be rival, Aleka;
    --Strife appears on Paradise Island and causes the Amazons to fight each other;
    --Strife spills the beans about Hippolyta and Zeus; Hippolyta comes clean;
    --Strife's actions cause a rift between some of the the Amazons (mainly Aleka) and Diana, reviving their childhood tensions over Diana's supposedly being made of clay and being the paragon of her kind, and Diana leaves the island in anger;
    --Hera turns Hippolyta to stone and the other Amazons to snakes;
    --After talking Zola about the value of family, Wonder Woman returns to Paradise Island to reconcile;
    --Apollo begins to plot to take his father's throne, but an aged and bitter Ares shows no interest;
    --Lennox, Wonder Woman's demi-god half-brother, is introduced;
    --Wonder Woman, following a plan from Lennox (or one brought to him by the "wind") blinds Hera by desroying her scrying pool;
    --a potential diastrous war between Poseidon and Hades is averted;
    --Zola is abducted to hell;
    --Wonder Woman meets Eros and Hephaestus and defeats a lava monster from Hades;
    --Wonder Woman learns Heph's version of the secret history of the Amazons, and she meets her Amazon brothers;
    --Wonder Woman attempts to free her brothers, but learns they see Heph more as a loving father figure than as a slave master;
    --Wonder Woman, escorted and assisted by Hermes, goes to Hades, fights shades and negotiates Zola's release;
    --Hades shoots Wonder Woman with one of Eros' guns and declares that she is engaged to be married to him;
    --We meet Kronus and Perspehone;
    --Strife entices Hades into testing Diana's love;
    --Wonder Woman renounces her engagement to Hades;
    --Hades releases Wonder Woman after learning that she has love for him but cannot be coerced into marrying him;
    --Wonder Woman fires self-love into the heart of Hades, potentially changing the nature of hell itself;
    --Apollo makes a deal with Hera;
    --Apollo and Artemis defeat Wonder Woman and company, abduct Zola and bring her to Hera on Olympus;
    --Apollo is enthroned as new king of Olympus, and Olympus is modernized;
    --Apollo renders Hera mortal;
    --Wonder Woman, uncuffed and transfigured, soundly thrashes Artemis, and Apollo tells her she can go but will have to kill Zola's baby if that child turns out to be the prophesied god-killer;
    --Hermes abducts Zola's baby and takes him or her to Demeter;
    --Hermes makes vague predictions about the baby's future;
    --we learn that Wonder Woman was mentored by War, defeated a minotaur, and rejected the merciless counsel of War,after inspiring mercy in War himself;
    --the gods discuss whether Diana is a threat, and there is a falling out between War and his divine siblings;
    --we meet Dionysus and is sent to follow War;
    --we meet Siracca and learn her origin;
    --Wonder Woman softens the heart of the sister who is trying to kill her;
    --we meet the First-Born and learn his origin;
    --we meet Cassandra;
    --we meet Orion and Highfather and hear about a threat to time itself.

    But the point is that even if it isn't as long (I haven't counted) or diverse a list as the one for Thor, it is a long list, and it's coherent and focused but with room for epic digressions.

    We first see the goats of Thor.
    Oh. Well, if there are goats, maybe you're right....When will we meet the goats of Wonder Woman?!? The fans demand it! Kanigher, get on that.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-05-2012 at 07:10 AM.

  6. #156
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    Since this thread is about how unpolished the current WW book is, I would like to point out how the book could otherwise have been; like the Phantom Stranger #3.

    I am going to put this in spoilers in case someone else here is actually reading it, but it is going to be in blocks only:
    spoilers:

    Page 1-8 1: Stranger gets tangled up in Dr. 13's personal problems with an angry ghost
    Page 9-13: The Stranger's pretend suburban life...dinner party with the neighbours
    Page 14-19: Round 2 with the angry ghost
    end of spoilers

    Now, some might find it nice that a rather substantial part of the book is dedicated to build up something that might look like a support cast of family members and neighbours...but I was bored to tears with that section because it has nothing to do with the Stranger or his job (since none of them knows who he is...to them he's just Philip). And right now I hope they all dissapear completely in a month or two :(

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Like that "next issue" blurb from the "last Norseman" issue said, it must all be really tiny. :)
    Back in the day we spent less time playing video games and had better eyesight. Also, MTV had not ruined our ability to appreciate words.

    Anyway, I was talking about specifically about the "thousands spears" pages and noting that the story on that page wouldn't have moved any slower without words. I'm not saying that Simonson's Thor, taken as a whole, had the same pace as Azzarello's Wonder Woman. I don't particularly want Wonder Woman to consistently move at Simonson's pace. It may have been fine for Simonson's Thor, I don't see why it would necessarily be desirable for this run of Wonder Woman right now. I don't think comic books should be priced by the word or even by the story beat; I'm paying for quality, not quantity.
    I expect both, and dont think they should be mutually exclusive.

    Epics are allowed to--even supposed to--take a long and winding road. I'm plenty satisfied with
    --Apollo's oracles prophesy a catalclysmic struggle between the gods;
    ---Hera tries to kill Zola;
    --Hermes is wounded while trying to protect Zola;
    --Zola is revealed to be the mother of Zeus' unborn child;
    --it is revealed that Zeus "doesn't exist yet";
    --we are introduced to the reimagined Amazons;
    --we meet Diana's childhood would-be rival, Aleka;
    --Strife appears on Paradise Island and causes the Amazons to fight each other;
    --Strife spills the beans about Hippolyta and Zeus; Hippolyta comes clean;
    --Strife's actions cause a rift between some of the the Amazons (mainly Aleka) and Diana, reviving their childhood tensions over Diana's supposedly being made of clay and being the paragon of her kind, and Diana leaves the island in anger;
    --Hera turns Hippolyta to stone and the other Amazons to snakes;
    --After talking Zola about the value of family, Wonder Woman returns to Paradise Island to reconcile;
    --Apollo begins to plot to take his father's throne, but an aged and bitter Ares shows no interest;
    --Lennox, Wonder Woman's demi-god half-brother, is introduced;
    --Wonder Woman, following a plan from Lennox (or one brought to him by the "wind") blinds Hera by desroying her scrying pool;
    --a potential diastrous war between Poseidon and Hades is averted;
    --Zola is abducted to hell;
    --Wonder Woman meets Eros and Hephaestus and defeats a lava monster from Hades;
    --Wonder Woman learns Heph's version of the secret history of the Amazons, and she meets her Amazon brothers;
    --Wonder Woman attempts to free her brothers, but learns they see Heph more as a loving father figure than as a slave master;
    --Wonder Woman, escorted and assisted by Hermes, goes to Hades, fights shades and negotiates Zola's release;
    --Hades shoots Wonder Woman with one of Eros' guns and declares that she is engaged to be married to him;
    --We meet Kronus and Perspehone;
    --Strife entices Hades into testing Diana's love;
    --Wonder Woman renounces her engagement to Hades;
    --Hades releases Wonder Woman after learning that she has love for him but cannot be coerced into marrying him;
    --Wonder Woman fires self-love into the heart of Hades, potentially changing the nature of hell itself;
    --Apollo makes a deal with Hera;
    --Apollo and Artemis defeat Wonder Woman and company, abduct Zola and bring her to Hera on Olympus;
    --Apollo is enthroned as new king of Olympus, and Olympus is modernized;
    --Apollo renders Hera mortal;
    --Wonder Woman, uncuffed and transfigured, soundly thrashes Artemis, and Apollo tells her she can go but will have to kill Zola's baby if that child turns out to be the prophesied god-killer;
    --Hermes abducts Zola's baby and takes him or her to Demeter;
    --Hermes makes vague predictions about the baby's future;
    --we learn that Wonder Woman was mentored by War, defeated a minotaur, and rejected the merciless counsel of War,after inspiring mercy in War himself;
    --the gods discuss whether Diana is a threat, and there is a falling out between War and his divine siblings;
    --we meet Dionysus and is sent to follow War;
    --we meet Siracca and learn her origin;
    --Wonder Woman softens the heart of the sister who is trying to kill her;
    --we meet the First-Born and learn his origin;
    --we meet Cassandra;
    --we meet Orion and Highfather and hear about a threat to time itself.
    It is shorter, and I also notice you were less succinct than I was. I'm afraid you will have to change that if you want to right comics book. That many words would never fit into a modern book.

    But the point is that even if it isn't as long (I haven't counted) or diverse a list as the one for Thor, it is a long list, and it's coherent and focused but with room for epic digressions.
    Indeed. And a pool, a second garage and a rumpus room.



    Oh. Well, if there are goats, maybe you're right....When will we meet the goats of Wonder Woman?!? The fans demand it! Kanigher, get on that.
    Wonder Woman's goats are apparently all on the message boards, being told we are too old to know what a good comic book is
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-05-2012 at 12:53 PM.
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    There are probably a couple of of excessive splash pages in those issues. War getting his hat blown off may be one, although it did illustrate how absurd War's province can be and how aloof and indifferent he and his sister can be to the chaos over which they preside.

    But here's an example from #10 (its last page) where I think economy of words is appropriate:



    They could certainly have added verbiage--"The bullet of Eros speeds unerringly towards its target--Hades, Lord of the Dead! Meanwhile, that dread lord grunts as he unwraps what that unequaled artisan Hephaestus had toiled to create as his ostensible nuptial gift to Hades and the Amazing Amazon--the most finely wrought looking glass in all the realms! A mirror suited to capture the beauty of Hades' wondrous intended in very truth--not a mere shade of her beauty, "as through a glass darkly," but, magically, her beauty itself--the very essence. And now it captures the truth of Hades, and he would recoil. But lo! Now the enchanted bullet strikes the candle-headed boy in his very heart! Scales of wax fly from the perpetual boy-god's eyes, and instead of the grim disgust it is his wont to see when, as he so rarely does, he deigns to look upon himself, now he beholds himself, all unaccustomed, with something...else....what could it be?....is it that most devastating and yet most gentle missile...called...LOVE?"

    But, see? That wouldn't have been better. Simplicity can trump overwrought verbiage.

    If you want to compare that council of the gods in Perez's #1 to something in Wonder Woman 10, compare it to the page where Hephaestus confronts Hades about their family's lack of love. There are plenty of panels and words there. But the nimber of panels or words isn't really the point. As memorable and revealing dialogue, or as an example of text working wih image, I'd trade for all those earnest yet one-dimensional words on Perez's page just Heph's simple line "We disappoint me," or "No one loves himelf as much as Eros [Heph grins slightly, Eros looks tricked...But I love you even more than that, my son [Eros looks relieved]?" Or Hades "But you love me?...Just go."

    And sometimes a large panel with a few words can actually be used to compress, not decompress. I'm thinking of the page in 9 where Diana sheds a tear when looking upon the shade of Paradise Island that Hades has made for her. We (IMO) don't need a page of melodramatic monologue in which Diana describes her feelings; we can infer them from the expression on her face. That instance, as I recalled, was a little too compressed for some, but I liked it.
    OR...they could have just made the panels smaller and had room for more panels were words were appropriate. And if you are going to argue that I dont really need to use as many words, you could equally argue that I dont really need to see the bullet travelling to know what happens when Hades gets shot.

    With a bit of tweaking you could have put Apollo's meeting with Artemis in this issue as a foreshadowing of the confrontation in #11. Or had a page to learn more about Zola.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-05-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    OR...they could have just made the panels smaller and had room for more panels were words were appropriate. And if you are going to argue that I dont really need to use as many words, you could equally argue that I dont really need to see the bullet travelling to know what happens when Hades gets shot.

    With a bit of tweaking you could have put Apollo's meeting with Artemis in this issue as a foreshadowing of the confrontation in #11. Or had a page to learn more about Zola.
    You could also resort to making everything smaller so we all have to use magnifying glasses to read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    OR...they could have just made the panels smaller and had room for more panels were words were appropriate. And if you are going to argue that I dont really need to use as many words, you could equally argue that I dont really need to see the bullet travelling to know what happens when Hades gets shot.
    Of course you don't. I don't think the the panel with the bullet is about imparting information. I think it looks good there, and I think it impart a tone, a feelign--a sense of velocity and energy and impending impact, or a sense of moment, you might say. It helps make the last scene feel impactful and momentous. Pretty much the same is ture of the words "My aim?...it's true." I don' thtink that those words are there to tell us that she hit her target. We can see that she hit her target. I think those words are there to make the scene feel valedictory, reinforcing the sense that, as she returns from hell, her sense of self, shaken by recent trauma (as we hear in #4 and saw in her near meltdown in #7).

    With a bit of tweaking you could have put Apollo's meeting with Artemis in this issue as a foreshadowing of the confrontation in #11. Or had a page to learn more about Zola.
    You could, but there was no need to. Apollo's attempt on the throne had already been foreshadowed in 4. And as it is, we learn some things about Zola in 12--that she is angry at Hermes for not helping WOnder Woman, that she feels ugly because she's pregnant (but Aphrodite thinks she's beautiful;), that she feels she's been handling recent events pretty well (even if Hermes hadn't noticed). And in 13, we would learn the name of her town and hospital, how she was trying to assert some control over her life, and how willing she was to risk her life to stand up for her friends. I think that the shooting of Hades was a climactic movement that deserved a full page.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-05-2012 at 04:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFalls View Post
    Maybe I'm being a bit thick here, I have just woken up and I also have a cold (yay winter) and I'm not understanding you correctly, but removing the text balloons would not leave blank spaces in the art. The artists don't draw in the word balloons they go in afterwards and over the art.

    I actually don't see, beyond it being a bit of a faff, why we can't have that option already with digital comics. If we had that option I'd be a little bit tempted to buy more digital comics. I would leave to see Batwoman without any text covering its glorious art.
    Random, yes... there is probably some complete art behind the balloons, but they know where the balloons go and draw around that space so that what is covered is really of no interest. That in itself is an art.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Of course you don't. I don't think the the panel with the bullet is about imparting information. I think it looks good there, and I think it impart a tone, a feelign--a sense of velocity and energy and impending impact, or a sense of moment, you might say. It helps make the last scene feel impactful and momentous. Pretty much the same is ture of the words "My aim?...it's true." I don' thtink that those words are there to tell us that she hit her target. We can see that she hit her target. I think those words are there to make the scene feel valedictory, reinforcing the sense that, as she returns from hell, her sense of self, shaken by recent trauma (as we hear in #4 and saw in her near meltdown in #7).
    All of which you can do and still use your 22 pages to tell more of the story.


    You could, but there was no need to. Apollo's attempt on the throne had already been foreshadowed in 4. And as it is, we learn some things about Zola in 12--that she is angry at Hermes for not helping WOnder Woman, that she feels ugly because she's pregnant (but Aphrodite thinks she's beautiful;), that she feels she's been handling recent events pretty well (even if Hermes hadn't noticed). And in 13, we would learn the name of her town and hospital, how she was trying to assert some control over her life, and how willing she was to risk her life to stand up for her friends. I think that the shooting of Hades was a climactic movement that deserved a full page.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don-Jack View Post
    This is a fine example of excessive writting:





    There is even a floating head.
    Yes, way too much writing. I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreus View Post
    Yes, way too much writing. I agree.
    mmm You have to read it rather than just look at it for a few seconds.

    I like the words. In the second page they are there to make you think.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-06-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    All of which you can do and still use your 22 pages to tell more of the story.
    See, I just don't get this attitude where comics writers are considered better judged on how many story beats they manage to cram into a page. It makes for extraordinarily bad, unreadable comics.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

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