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  1. #76
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    I guess Wonder Woman is a rather generic, slow-moving Vertigo comic, now, ..posing as a superhero comic. As I don't think Mr. Azzarello is interested in doing a superhero comic, he's turned this comic into a Vertigo, and I'm sure that's fine and dandy with some of you. If you want to read a Vertigo comic, with a superhero in it, here you are.

    [Just] Zola and [Just] Lennox have been entertaining, so far. I think it's entirely right that Wonder Woman, being an American icon, should have a brother, who is a British superhero, ..even a retired one. Zola is a spectacular successor to Etta Candy, and I'm sure something cool will eventually be done with Lennox.

    DC Comics has given us two or three Flashes, Hawkmen and Green Lanterns. Now, it's given us a second or third Wonder Woman, with a new origin and background, and I'm solidly behind that. I'm long over the loss of the 'clay doll' origin, accepting Mr. Azzarello's Amazon as an entirely new being, ..one in a long line of Wonder Women. For my money, the real or original Wonder Woman is still out there somewhere, in the multiverse.

    I'm at peace with that. All of it.

    I just don't think I want to read a Vertigo comic, masquerading as Wonder Woman, right now. Fourteen issues is enough. I'll leave it at that.
    Last edited by MelDyer; 11-28-2012 at 06:29 PM.
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    I guess Wonder Woman is a rather generic, slow-moving Vertigo comic, now, ..posing as a superhero comic. As I don't think Mr. Azzarello is interested in doing a superhero comic, he's turned this comic into a Vertigo, and I'm sure that's fine and dandy with some of you. If you want to read a Vertigo comic, with a superhero in it, here you are.
    Hah, that's where you're wrong, it's not even posing.

  3. #78
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    Hah, that's where you're wrong, it's not even posing.
    Not even posing! Ha-ha'ha! At this point, it's like getting mad at the cat for not barking loud enough. What am I reading?!

    Haven't taken a vacation from this comic, since the Stracynski run. Time to go fish, awhile.
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    Iguess Wonder Woman is a...Vertigo comic, now, ..posing as a superhero comic....If you want to read a Vertigo comic, with a superhero in it, here you are.
    Thanks. Yep, that's what I want. I agree with Lone Necromancer (and with your last post) that it's not posing as a superhero comic. We knew this before #1 came out. In August 2011, Azzarello said "it's not going to be a superhero book. I can guarantee you that, it's not a superhero book. It's a horror book." http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/t...ello-talk.html

    That's truth in advertising, no?
    Last edited by slvn; 11-28-2012 at 06:54 PM.

  5. #80
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Thanks. Yep, that's what I want. I agree with Lone Necromancer (and with your last post) that it's not posing as a superhero comic. We knew this before #1 came out. In August 2011, Azzarello said "it's not going to be a superhero book. I can guarantee you that, it's not a superhero book. It's a horror book." http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/t...ello-talk.html

    That's truth in advertising, no?
    Oh, it's a horror, alright.

    Not sure about the 'book' part, because you'd actually need a story for that. Where I come from you open a comic book and find a story, inside. Don't think there's enough meat on them bones for a proper comic book story.

    Heh'heh, heh...

    Honestly, the 'horror comic' thing never bothered me, so much as that I don't think Mr. Azzarello is writing a comic, here, ..considering so many of the pieces are missing. I don't even think this is a good horror comic, as I've certainly read better.

    Time to go ..and thank you all for joining this discussion.
    Last edited by MelDyer; 11-28-2012 at 07:21 PM. Reason: bile
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    Oh, it's a horror, alright.

    Not sure about the 'book' part, because you'd actually need a story for that. Where I come from you open a comic book and find a story, inside. Don't think there's enough meat on them bones for a proper comic book story.

    Heh'heh, heh...

    Honestly, the 'horror comic' thing never bothered me, so much as that I don't think Mr. Azzarello is writing a comic, here, ..considering so many of the pieces are missing. I don't even think this is a good horror comic, as I've certainly read better.

    Time to go ..and thank you all for joining this discussion.
    /rolls eyes

    I was going to go on about how much story there has been, but no, I think I'll just stick with rolling my eyes, it's gotten past the point where I can't even take this seriously. Quite frankly arguing in these boards too often make me feel like I'm telling my grandparents about how to adjust to modern life.
    Last edited by LoneNecromancer; 11-28-2012 at 08:01 PM.

  7. #82
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    I guess Wonder Woman is a rather generic, slow-moving Vertigo comic, now, ..posing as a superhero comic. As I don't think Mr. Azzarello is interested in doing a superhero comic, he's turned this comic into a Vertigo, and I'm sure that's fine and dandy with some of you. If you want to read a Vertigo comic, with a superhero in it, here you are.
    You won't make friends here saying this, but you're right. There is a Vertigo house style of storytelling, and it isn't a good fit for superheroes. I always avoided the imprint, generally. My impression was that most Vertigo books tended to be dark and bleak in theme; and slow-moving in pace, written for the trade rather than as monthly serials, because the label was encouraging the writers to aim for Art rather than serial storytelling. The imprint seemed to have a general disdain for superheroes. Karen Berger wanted the label to be "different, smarter, edgier": for 'smarter' read 'pretentious', for 'edgier' read 'dark and weird'.

    Writers coming from that background are not discouraged from having disdain for traditional superheroes, and don't learn what works and doesn't work in the genre. With the 'cuffs' business, Azzarello invalidated each of the few fight scenes he had written before that issue. You don't have your hero have her fundament handed to her over and over, and then reveal that she knew all along that she had powers that could have won those fights for her. A real superhero writer would have seen a problem there.

    His run has sought to degrade and darken the contributions of every previous writer of Wonder Woman, and continues to impress me as an elaborate gesture of contempt for everything that she and her world have ever been. I call it vandalism. And besides that, it is, as you note, underwritten and boring, and if you just ignore the wordplay, you can get the gist of every issue in thirty seconds of browsing. You see the world he's failed to build, and I remember the world he's tried to destroy.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    /rolls eyes

    I was going to go on about how much story there has been, but no, I think I'll just stick with rolling my eyes, it's gotten past the point where I can't even take this seriously. Quite frankly arguing in these boards too often make me feel like I'm telling my grandparents about how to adjust to modern life.
    What he said, with added side of stop doing that horrible geek-life habit of tell people not to like what you don't like. If you don't like it, that's fine. You don't have to. But, jebus, please stop making up reasons that other people shouldn't too.

  9. #84
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    /rolls eyes

    I was going to go on about how much story there has been, but no, I think I'll just stick with rolling my eyes, it's gotten past the point where I can't even take this seriously. Quite frankly arguing in these boards too often make me feel like I'm telling my grandparents about how to adjust to modern life.
    Perhaps not enough people listen to their grandparents.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    Writers coming from that background are not discouraged from having disdain for traditional superheroes, and don't learn what works and doesn't work in the genre. With the 'cuffs' business, Azzarello invalidated each of the few fight scenes he had written before that issue. You don't have your hero have her fundament handed to her over and over, and then reveal that she knew all along that she had powers that could have won those fights for her. A real superhero writer would have seen a problem there.
    Heh. And here I thought the hero losing, and then later winning by pulling some bizarre power stunt out of their backside they could have done at any time is a true an tested silver age superhero trope.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Perhaps not enough people listen to their grandparents.
    True. If they listened to their grandparents, they'd probably hear a lot of stories about how their grandparents and their grandparents' generation pushed against the rules and conventions that were set by their grandparents, and how pushing against those old rules and conventions allowed them to gradually create new ones that made more sense for them and for their times. And that we'd start thinking that our generation too (and the generations coming up after us) should push and innovate, instead of just following the old rulebook.

    Though I'm enjoying Azzarello's Wonder Woman, I'm not sure whether it will be remembered as particularly unconventional or innovative in the long run; we'll have to see. But I certainly wouldn't hold stretching a few rules or breaking a few conventions against it. Having your expectations--including genre-based expectations-- challenged isn't always a bad thing in reading. For example, I might have expected to see some thought balloons or internal monologue--they're reasonably conventional in superhero comics--but I actually like that this expectation wasn't met; not directly seeing what's going on in Diana's head means that we have to infer her thoughts and motives from her words and actions, which is more interesting to me. You can definitely argue that this change is bad for other reasons, but I don't think that simply being unconventional makes it bad. Having a female lead who valued peaceful problem solving was unconventional and against unspoken rules of the new superhero genre when Marston did it, but we certainly don't think he was wrong to break those and other rules.

    In order to be convinced that leaving out Zola's last name or Wonder Woman's way of paying the rent was bad, I'd have to find ways in which it hurts the story or characterization. Just being different from other comics, and particularly form superhero comics, isn't by itself a problem for me.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-29-2012 at 08:26 AM.

  12. #87
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    True. If they listened to their grandparents, they'd probably hear a lot of stories about how their grandparents and their grandparents' generation pushed against the rules and conventions that were set by their grandparents, and how pushing against those old rules and conventions allowed them to gradually create new ones that made more sense for them and for their times. And that we'd start thinking that our generation too (and the generations coming up after us) should push and innovate, instead of just following the old rulebook.
    Or they might discover that what they offhandedly dismisses as inferior because an earlier generation came up with it actually has a lot going for it.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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  13. #88
    Da?!?!?! bobbyraw's Avatar
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    I haven't read much Wonder Woman previously, but whatever I read, I really enjoyed.

    I don't enjoy this.

  14. #89
    Da?!?!?! bobbyraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    You won't make friends here saying this, but you're right. There is a Vertigo house style of storytelling, and it isn't a good fit for superheroes. I always avoided the imprint, generally. My impression was that most Vertigo books tended to be dark and bleak in theme; and slow-moving in pace, written for the trade rather than as monthly serials, because the label was encouraging the writers to aim for Art rather than serial storytelling. The imprint seemed to have a general disdain for superheroes. Karen Berger wanted the label to be "different, smarter, edgier": for 'smarter' read 'pretentious', for 'edgier' read 'dark and weird'.

    Writers coming from that background are not discouraged from having disdain for traditional superheroes, and don't learn what works and doesn't work in the genre. With the 'cuffs' business, Azzarello invalidated each of the few fight scenes he had written before that issue. You don't have your hero have her fundament handed to her over and over, and then reveal that she knew all along that she had powers that could have won those fights for her. A real superhero writer would have seen a problem there.

    His run has sought to degrade and darken the contributions of every previous writer of Wonder Woman, and continues to impress me as an elaborate gesture of contempt for everything that she and her world have ever been. I call it vandalism. And besides that, it is, as you note, underwritten and boring, and if you just ignore the wordplay, you can get the gist of every issue in thirty seconds of browsing. You see the world he's failed to build, and I remember the world he's tried to destroy.
    Ouch.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Or they might discover that what they offhandedly dismisses as inferior because an earlier generation came up with it actually has a lot going for it.
    They would discover that, if they don't already know it. But why "or"? We can't people discover the value of both tradition and innovation by listening to their grandparents (many of whom were innovators in their own day)? I don't dismiss Marston or Perez or other Golden, Silver and Bronze age writers and artists as inferior. I like reading the back issues. I even like the occasional homage like Azzarello's. But I don't think we need to endlessly copy the old styles without trying something new. In fact, if today's writers want to be the Marston or Perez of our day, then today's writers have to be innovative--because Marston and Perez were innovative. For example, I don't think using thought balloons makes previous runs of Wonder Woman inferior. I just think Azzarello's style is interesting in its own right.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-29-2012 at 03:24 PM.

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