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  1. #61
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    No, nor is Zola, for instance, just Zola. She's a young woman whose father is in prison and whose mother is dead; who lived alone, but for horses, on a farm near Olivburn (sp?), VA, and who goes to the Olivburn clinic for her medical needs; who isn't ashamed that she "like[s] men" and has some casual sex; who has the guts and loyalty to drive a truck into the Sun to help her friends, rather than running away; who is also brave enough to use her shotgun to hold off crowds of shades in Hell; who doesn't always do what she's told, even when Wonder Woman is doing the telling; who is wise enough to recognize Wonder Woman's need for community and bold enough to remind her of her need for family; who can be bitchy enough to start to earn Strife's respect (in #4); who is somewhat more of a realist and less of an idealist than Wonder Woman, based on how they hear Lennox's story differently in #5; who apparently did some mean things to fireflies in her youth, and has a ways to go before she can be considered an able combatant in wars of words with gods; who can be, as Lennox says, a "firecracker" with a bit of a temper; who doesn't like tomatoes for breakfast; and so on. That's more than I know about most people in a bar. Actually, that's more than I know about a lot of people whose last names I do know.
    Are you sure you aren't somehow related to Azz? These kind of posts make me think that in your mind, Azz can do no wrong, even if it is pointed out that he had made a mistake (God forbid). Not saying he has made mistakes, although some of us may think otherwise.

  2. #62
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    No, nor is Zola, for instance, just Zola. She's a young woman whose father is in prison and whose mother is dead; who lived alone, but for horses, on a farm near Olivburn...That's more than I know about most people in a bar. Actually, that's more than I know about a lot of people whose last names I do know.
    What's Jimmy Olsen's last name, Slvn? Or J. Jonah Jameson's? Or Commissioner Gordon's? Or Doctor Huer's? Or Etta Candy's? Why is it that we can't answer that question, with Issue #14 on the stands?

    Where does Batman live? Where does Superman work? Why is it that people reading Superman and Batman comics can answer these questions? Easy questions, I think. How many panels does it take to get that done?

    Or to give Zola and Lennox surnames?

    How is that a bother? Why is that a problem, with fourteen issues in the can?

    Prove to me that Wonder Woman isn't a hooker ..or how she's paying rent, if she pays rent. You can't. You can't, because Wonder Woman's editors aren't on the job ..and haven't been for quite some time.

    Prove to me Diana isn't a drug dealer or a jewel thief, or running a gold-plated escort service out of that suite of rooms she drifts through, every few issues. You can't...

    Not picking on you here, Slvn, ..but, it does matter to me. Here's my little, don't-know-squat list of simple easy-to-answer questions about the comic we're reading:

    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    Neither Zola or Lennox have been given last names (surnames) and it's already Issue #14, with #15 on the way!

    Diana's 'place' in London looks an awful lot like a hotel suite, though it could be a flat ..or a condo? It should be clear where in Hades she is, from one issue to the next! We know where Batman and Superman live? Where does Diana actually live? This is SO basic!

    What does Wonder Woman do for a living? What's her trade? Perhaps, we shouldn't ask, considering her taste in clothes, boots and ropes.

    Zola and Lennox are still around, but, I don't feel so certain that they are the supporting cast. I don't get the impression that this comic truly has a regular supporting cast.

    What exactly is Lennox?! Is he Great Brittain's retired Captain America? I imagine that Lennox will, at some point, go back to where ever he's from and settle into being a guest character, as super-powered siblings or counterparts tend to do (Supergirl, Batgirl, etc), ..because he simply doesn't feel like a regular. Honestly, I don't want to read a WW comic, with her brother in every other issue, throwing tanks at people!

    Zola feels like Etta's successor, but also seems so incomplete! Does Zola have a family or a husband, serving in the US military? How does she run a farm all by herself, or does she? Who's running her farm now, while she's running around with Wondy? What's her deal? Of all the new characters, Zola, because she has SO much potential and because I like her SO much, is the most infuriating of all to me ..and the biggest disappointment...
    How much should I be paying for this comic to find out Zola's last name? Five bucks? Twenty bucks? Three not enough?
    Last edited by MelDyer; 11-28-2012 at 09:19 AM. Reason: clarity
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    How is that a bother? Why is that a problem, with fourteen issues in the can?

    Prove to me that Wonder Woman isn't a hooker ..or how she's paying rent, if she pays rent. You can't. You can't, because Wonder Woman's editors aren't on the job ..and haven't been for quite some time.

    Prove to me Diana isn't a drug dealer or a jewel thief, or running a gold-plated escort service out of that suite of rooms she drifts through, every few issues. You can't...

    Not picking on you here, Slvn, ..but, it does matter. To me.
    Must be a drag.

    Look, it's really pretty simple. There is no slacking in editorial.

    The characters are not nailed down to the finest detail for a reason. If you had known what was revealed about Hermes, it would have given something away.

    You can always go into detail. What you can't do is take them back once they're out there.

  4. #64
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    There is no slacking in editorial.

    The characters are not nailed down to the finest detail for a reason. If you had known what was revealed about Hermes, it would have given something away.
    A-aahh...but, I DID know what was revealed about Hermes, before a lot of you did!

    I predicted that he, and not [Just] Lennox (who so many of you seemed to hate, at the time) would betray Diana, while [Just] Lennox would stand by his little sister to the end, ..and he has! I wasn't alone in predicting this, and I'm reading the same comic you are, ..but just saw the writing on the wall, before it dried. Here's my big Hermes-is-a-big-two-faced-ratbag thread.

    Still don't understand how so many of you didn't see Hermes's betrayal coming. Azzarello practically wrote it on our foreheads! Lol

    Again, ..how does telling us where Wonder Woman lives take away from the great artistic work we're reading, ..and it is a great and inspired work, even with all it's problems. Making Diana the daughter of Zeus and weaving her into this family of meddling Greek gods was a stroke of genius, and Mr. Azzarello's writing has made us all wonder why Wondy-creators never bothered to do this before! Sheer genius!

    And I'm loving every minute of it.

    Doesn't change the fact that he's writing a comic. It's a genre AND a medium, and we have certain, simple expectations that deserve to be respected ..for three-plus, hard-earned bucks, a month. Nobody's asking him or his editors to knock over Mount Everest, but, between them I can't accept that this simple, standard comic book stuff can't be addressed.

    Again, who does it hurt? Does it hurt you or Azzarello? How many panels does it take to name Diana's building 'the Blank Hotel' or 'the Blank Arms' or whatever? How does that hurt the story or the fans?

    No! Please don't tell me [Just] Zola's last name or where Wonder Woman lives! Please! I don't think I could handle it! Heh'heh! Are you kidding?

    I think for three dollars, Uncle War can be bothered with that.
    Last edited by MelDyer; 11-28-2012 at 10:19 AM. Reason: style, link, more text, clarity
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    A-aahh...but, I DID know what was revealed about Hermes, before a lot of you did.
    Dude, New 52. Trying to get totally new readers would be dumb if they told them what your old audience knows.

    How does not telling you really take anything away from it?

  6. #66
    French-Canadian Frank Fournier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Hehehe

    How fitting. Go read the preview for Superman # 14 to see what's going on in Clark Kent's own appartment:

    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...eview&id=14352

    ~ One thousand apologies if I'm using broken English. ~

  7. #67

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    Wasn't the fact that a betrayal is coming spoiled in the solicits itself?
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    Emma Frost : Breeding, darling. Top class breeding.

  8. #68
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Fournier View Post
    How fitting. Go read the preview for Superman # 14 to see what's going on in Clark Kent's own appartment:

    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...eview&id=14352

    That comic feels so fresh, right now, Wonder how long that'll last.
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    What's Jimmy Olsen's last name, Slvn?
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's Olsen. And now, I'll ask you:

    --What state and town did New52 Jimmy Olsen grow up in? Was it rural or urban?
    --Where does he go to see a doctor when he needs a checkup?
    --Are both of his parents living? What do they do? Does he have any family members in prison?
    --Has he ever risked his life to save a friend?
    --Does he have a sex life?
    --Does he ever lose his temper?
    --Has he ever owned animals?
    --How does he get along with fireflies?
    --Does he have any enemies?
    --Does he own a gun? How about a truck?
    --Have he and Clark ever had a heart-to-heart that reminded Clark of anything important?

    I have read Action and I've read Wonder Woman, and I can tell you that I feel I know Zola--last name or no last name--better than I know Jimmy.

    Where does Batman live? Where does Superman work? Why is it that people reading Superman and Batman comics can answer these questions?
    It's probably because the answers to those questions are relevant to the story that those books are telling. If Superman started with a space opera, his job might have been less relevant (and his eponymous book's opening arc, IMO, might have been more interesting).

    Who was Batman's childhood rival? Who was Superman's mentor, other than his parents, when he was 12 or thirteen years old? What school subjects did Clark prefer (as Diana apparently preferred combat to religion, according to War)? Did Clark's parents ever lie to him? What did Bruce and Clark do that made their parents proud? Did they have any nicknames? As children, did they ever feel like misfits? Back them, did they ever lose their tempers? How did they learn to be merciful? What kind of music do they like, and what do they do to relax? What do they like for breakfast?

    We know that stuff about Wonder Woman, and some of it might tell me as much or more about her as a person than whether she lives in a hotel would tell me.


    Prove to me that Wonder Woman isn't a hooker
    Prove to me that Clark isn't a hooker now that he has quit his day job. For that matter, prove to me that Superman isn't into auto-asphyxiation (involving kryptonite in some way, I guess), or that Batman doesn't have a drug habit. .It can be hard to prove a negative. Even if we knew what her job was, I couldn't prove to you that she didn't do a little hooking on the side. We know from JL that she has helped out ARGUS as well as having adventures with the team and on her own during the mere five years she has spent in "man's world," so I doubt she has had time to set up a prostitution business, and she is the princess of Amazons and insists on trust in her relationships, so it would be a pretty odd vocational choice. Maybe she sold a harpy's egg. Most likely she has received pay from ARGUS, since JL 13 and 14 make it sound like she working with/for them pretty regularly. It could be interesting to find out sometime, but it's not something I need to know in order to enjoy the comic. But obviously, your mileage may vary.

    Not picking on you here, Slvn, ..but, it does matter to me.
    That's fine; I enjoy this kind of conversation. And you're entitled to have it matter to you. For me, the emotional as well as colorful stuff that we know about Zola and Wonder Woman matters a lot more.

    How much should I be paying for this comic to find out Zola's last name? Five bucks? Twenty bucks? Three not enough?
    That's your call, but I wouldn't pay 10 cents for Zola's last name. What's in a name? I'm paying for the story and characterization, and I'm pleased.

    I wouldn't be any less pleased if I learned Zola's last name. For your sake, I hope we do. But, unless her last name is "-El' and she's Superman's long-lost sister, I doubt it will do much to let us know the character better.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-28-2012 at 06:57 PM.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that he's writing a comic. It's a genre AND a medium, and we have certain, simple expectations that deserve to be respected ..for three-plus, hard-earned bucks, a month. Nobody's asking him or his editors to knock over Mount Everest, but, between them I can't accept that this simple, standard comic book stuff can't be addressed.
    Sure, maybe if I was seven and still thought art should have to follow rules. Doesn't matter if it's free or costs a kidney. That doesn't buy you any say in what an artist wants to do. Nor should it.

  11. #71
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreus View Post
    Back in the day, you could get maps of lairs, and detailed outlines regarding powers and abilities, I haven't seen this in quite some time. People eat this stuff up. I know I love it. It's like a little gem in the back of the comic. Fun stuff. Azz might not work that way, but he could do little write ups of the gods, their history, etc. Maybe writers are getting a little lazy nowadays? It's just all about the page count. Yeah, I can see that side of it... Good points. I remember Defenders, there was the story, and sometimes in the back of the comic there would be a "bonus" like a character write up with a hero or villan's history and powers/abilities, or the Defender's lair, or the Sanctum Sanctorum. A letter's page. Bendis got me hooked on Powers, not so much as the comic itself, though it was good, because he took the time to answer his fans and make hilarious (and vulgar) remarks to their questions. Just that little extra...

    Hmm...
    OMG yes! Those maps Perez used to do in Teen Titans I think of the HIVE lairs. Damn you, now I have to pull out those comics and read them and be even more impressed with how much better they were! LOL
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  12. #72
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that he's writing a comic. It's a genre AND a medium...
    Well, you're half right. Comics are a medium.
    They're as much a genre as DVDs are though.
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    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    Are you sure you aren't somehow related to Azz? These kind of posts make me think that in your mind, Azz can do no wrong, even if it is pointed out that he had made a mistake (God forbid). Not saying he has made mistakes, although some of us may think otherwise.
    Yep, I'm sure. You sure he didn't shoot your dog?

    Of course he can do wrong. I didn't really like For Tomorrow all that much, for example. It was OK; I just didn't love it. The Flashpoint Batman was good, but I thought it was a little overrated; among the Flashpoint minis, I preferred Outsider and a couple of the others. Even in Wonder Woman, he can make mistakes; I think there was a typo in #0. :) And I've actually agreed with Brett about the occasional unnecessary splash page. I've said I didn't like #s 5 and 6 as well as the other issues. Etc.

    I wasn't saying Azz doesn't make mistakes, but given Mel's post, I wanted to point out that we know a lot more about Zola than we would know about strangers we meet in bars, and more than we know about a lot of characters who last names we know. Am I wrong about that? Did I make any of the things that I said we know about Zola? Do they not add up to more insight on her as a character, and also more colorful detail, than a last name would give us?

    Of course we could have both, but I was responding to Mel's point that in a bar we might only know that she's Zola, and I wanted to point out that we have an awful lot more than a first name.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-28-2012 at 03:28 PM.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Don-Jack's Avatar
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    Double-sized issues is what we need.
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  15. #75
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Well, you're half right. Comics are a medium.
    They're as much a genre as DVDs are though.
    What? You mean DVDs can be used for something else than porn?
    ...
    That's new.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

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