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  1. #46
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    I would much rather see a book that takes the less likely route go down in flames than a safe book go on forever.

    Would you have wanted that logic to apply to -

    The Morrison run on Animal Man or Doom Patrol?

    The format of Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On A Serious Earth?
    I dont know. I've never read them.

    But I have read comics for 30 years and seen a lot of things. Simonsons run on Thor [which I often refer to] was a good story and sold well. Peter Davids Hulk run felt the same. Loved it. I also liked what he was doing on Star Trek back in the 80s and 90s but that was canned. I have no idea why.

    Sometimes what I think is good work gets cancelled and less good work goes on and on and even flourishes. Any Firefly fan knows that. But ultimately you need to make money to keep a book being published, unless you want to post it online for free. Which is perfectly fine. Its not a problem at the moment because Azzarello has enough people buying what he is selling.
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  2. #47
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreus View Post
    No offense taken at all, I just look at it like a movie. If James Bond is in his flat for the first five min of a Bond film, do I really care where in London the flat is? No, I do not. Though I do take your point, you'd like to have more bang for your buck. My comic spending is VERY limited these days. I buy WW and maybe two other books a month. And I still consider it my junk food reading, but I like the art and story of WW, and am curious where it goes.

    Having said all that, I don't know that I'd mind if they went back to the style of the 70's. I picked up a few 70's Dr Strange comics, they were a lot more text heavy, cost me all of $1, and they took a lot longer to read, so I'm not saying you don't have a valid point. It doesn't particularly bother me, but I can see where it would bother some folks.
    Indeed. Those comics are wonderful.

    My comic buying has fallen off as well. If there are well written novels I would rather read them - much better value for money. Its just lucky for the comic companies that I have run out of Song of Ice and Fire books to read

    Of course the bad news is I can pick up a DVD box set for the price of two weeks comics and it will keep me entertained for twenty times as long
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  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From Room X View Post
    Cassandra Cain's Batgirl series went 25 issues without her (or us) knowing who her mother is, or what she did after running away when she was 8 and killed a man. Her only supporting cast was Oracle and Batman, with a cameo by Stephanie Brown which blossomed later into a close friendship. All we knew was that she had a death wish, kinda and wanted to fight Shiva.

    Planetary took about 20 issues to give us the origin of one of its pivotal characters, Jakita Wagner. Before that all we knew about her was she was a badass metahuman chick with superstrength and speed. Same for the Drummer.

    I don't think there's anything really wrong with what Brian Azzarello is doing. Wonder Woman's name is just Diana, not Diana Prince. Has been for 14 months now. Her private life isn't really important to the story compared to the adventures she's having around the globe, going to Hell and Olympus, travelling to Libya and now to New York. From #1 this run has been all about taking Diana out of her comfort zone (i.e home, Paradise Island) and putting her in strange, unfamiliar places and situations.

    Brian Azzarello already said in the beginning of his run that Wonder Woman doesn't have a secret identity. She is always WW. So there is no question of her turning out to be a hooker or something else.
    Cassandra Cain's Batgirl is a different kind of story. Even though you don't learn a lot about the character, all those issues are actually brought up. Characters openly wonder about the things she's been through and who her parents are. Those plot elements are set up as mysteries to be solves later in the story. With Wonder Woman, there is no mystery surrounding the lack of information, they're just holes. Wonder Woman is not an enigmatic character with a shadowy past like Cassandra Cain or Jakita Wagner. She's a very open character that everyone is supposed to know about.

    Regardless, I think the reason why there's not much information about Wonder Woman is because Azzarello is treating this series like a myth, where a lot of things are up to the reader to fill out. Look at actual Greek myths, they're pretty light on the details, they don't have many well established rules, and they're pretty open to interpretation by the audience. For example, there's really no explanation for how Zeus was trained to fight the Titans. The myths don't explain why the Olympians who were swallowed by Kronus were able to gain the knowledge and power to fight the Titans despite spending their entire life in Kronus's stomach. The myths don't explain why Apollo and Artemis grew into adults in one day but lots of other gods grew at the rate of normal humans.

  4. #49
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    I just assumed that Lennox, being some kind of earth god or something, doesn't gave a last name, and isn't even called Lennox.

    What's Zeus's last name? Zeus Jones? Zeus Zimmerman? Zeus Maxie?

    It occurse me that Diana has never had a last name either.

    (and no, she has not ever been called Diana Prince, not in this universe nor in any other version of the character. Prince was always a stolen or made up name)
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    If, by Issue #700, as in Issue #14, Mr. Azzarello hasn't given Wondy enough background to distinguish her from a high-priced call girl or a drug dealer ..or a travelling insurance salesperson, ..will your 'new comic' idea still hold up, in your eyes?
    He and Johns, drawing on the Wonder Woman legacy, have already done that, haven't they? Your average high-priced call girl, drug dealer or travelling insurance salesman isn't the super-powered princess of a secluded people of warrior women, hasn't spent the last five years fighting alongside ARGUS and the Justice League, isn't the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta, and doesn't harbor such a ragtag group of houseguests as Hera, Lennox and Zola.

    I haven't seen any indication that her place is a hotel--it looks more like a private townhouse to me. But it wouldn't bother me if her housing arrangements aren't clarified by issue 700, as long as there continue to be good stories to which her housing arrangements don't happen to be relevant. If they become relevant to a story, then by all means, as I said on another thread, let's have an issue 0.5 where we see her housing search in all its glorious detail.

    But for now, that doesn't seem relevant. And I'd rather wait and have biographical details emerge from the story when they become relevant, rather than have them dropped in as off-hand comments now. Why foreclose future possibilities just for the sake of sticking some random information in? If Azzarello mentions now that the townhouse is leased for Diana from ARGUS, and if he's not doing anything interesting with that fact, all he accomplishes is preventing the next writer from writing a creative story in which the place was a gift from Prince William, an inheritance from Exoristos, or whatnot. Colorful trivia like her taste in breakfast or her idea of a relaxing evening in London or fine to sprinkle in whenever. But real biographical information shouldn't forced, in when it's not relevant, just to check off a box on fans' checklists.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-28-2012 at 05:14 AM.

  6. #51
    Infme et fier de l'tre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    I just assumed that Lennox, being some kind of earth god or something, doesn't gave a last name, and isn't even called Lennox.

    What's Zeus's last name? Zeus Jones? Zeus Zimmerman? Zeus Maxie?

    It occurse me that Diana has never had a last name either.

    (and no, she has not ever been called Diana Prince, not in this universe nor in any other version of the character. Prince was always a stolen or made up name)
    Zeus Carver.

    "Zeus: Why you keep calling me Jsus? I look Puerto Rican to you?
    John McClane: Guy back there called you Jsus.
    Zeus: He didn't say Jsus. He said, "Hey, Zeus!" My name is Zeus.
    John McClane: Zeus?
    Zeus: Yeah, Zeus! As in, father of Apollo? Mt. Olympus? Don't fuck with me or I'll shove a lightning bolt up your ass? Zeus! You got a problem with that?
    John McClane: No, I don't have a problem with that."
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  7. #52
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    If Azzarello mentions now that the townhouse is leased for Diana from ARGUS, and if he's not doing anything interesting with that fact, all he accomplishes is preventing the next writer from writing a creative story in which the place was a gift from Prince William, an inheritance from Exoristos, or whatnot. Colorful trivia like her taste in breakfast or her idea of a relaxing evening in London or fine to sprinkle in whenever. But real biographical information shouldn't forced, in when it's not relevant, just to check off a box on fans' checklists.
    No, it should be an organic part of the story, which is why its notable by its abscence. Obviously I am not the only one who thinks so, which is always nice.

    And the first statement is just odd, dude. Don't nail anything down in case the next writer is limited? By that logic nobody would ever add details.

    It's funny, but I was thinking today of my class at school [8 year olds] and my own son the same age. Xander especially would be asking lots of the same questions. Who gave her her house? Did she buy it? Where did the money come from? Who is Lennox mum? Do Zola's friends miss her?

    He often does this during cartoons and I tell him if we wait and watch we might find out. By now reading WW his head would have exploded.
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  8. #53
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    It's funny, but I was thinking today of my class at school [8 year olds] and my own son the same age. Xander especially would be asking lots of the same questions. Who gave her her house? Did she buy it? Where did the money come from? Who is Lennox mum? Do Zola's friends miss her?

    He often does this during cartoons and I tell him if we wait and watch we might find out. By now reading WW his head would have exploded.
    Well, the book dos not seem particularily aimed at the 8-year old demographic...
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    No, it should be an organic part of the story, which is why its notable by its abscence.
    I think you're making my point for me. We should get those important biographical facts that are relevant--or, if you prefer, organic--to the story being told. How Wonder Woman pays for her apartment isn't organic to the current story, so in my view, Azzarello is right not to deal with it until there is a story to which it can be organic. And how she pays for her apartment doesn't have to be an organic part of every Wonder Woman story; if we think about it, I'm sure we can come up with some good ones where it barely came up or didn't come up at all.

    And the first statement is just odd, dude. Don't nail anything down in case the next writer is limited? By that logic nobody would ever add details.
    That would have been odd, but it's not what I said. It was more like this: Don't nail down everything just for the sake of nailing it down; only nail things down when doing so enhances the story you are telling about the character. Or, if you'd like another child-related analogy, try this: take the toys that you actually intend to play with out of the box and have fun with them, but leave the rest for the next person to play with.

    It's funny, but I was thinking today of my class at school [8 year olds] and my own son the same age. Xander especially would be asking lots of the same questions. Who gave her her house? Did she buy it? Where did the money come from? Who is Lennox mum? Do Zola's friends miss her?

    He often does this during cartoons and I tell him if we wait and watch we might find out. By now reading WW his head would have exploded.
    Yep. One of the wonderful things about kids at that age is that they sometimes seem to want to ask about everything all at once. But this comic isn't written for eight-year olds. Hopefully, we're still curious, but a little more patient and a little more selective in the questions that we think need to be answered at any given moment.

    No, I'm not saying that you and everyone--and I acknowledge once again, you're far from the only one-- who is anxious details about her life in the five-year gap is like an eight-year old. And I'm not saying you're wrong to want that information. I'm just saying that Azz isn't wrong not to provide it all right now. I'm glad he's saying focused on his story. Their are different tastes and different styles, and more than one of them is legitimate.

  10. #55
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    If I've swung my club a little to broadly and scalped a few friends here, I apologize, ..but, last night, I just re-read Issue #14, and I am seriously disappointed with this title.

    Rather than repeat what I've been repeating for two pages, I'll just say that I think the WW comic, background and supporting cast, should be more firmly nailed down than it is. If the present story was impressive enough that I could ignore the very simple, standard expectations for comic book story-telling, I certainly would ..and have defended Mr. Azzarello's new direction to many of my friends here, on more than one occasion. As I've said before, I'm fully on-board with the new direction, but finding more than a little difficulty with its execution, which I find sketchier than I feel it should be, at this point in the game.

    In a bar, everybody's just 'Zola' and 'Lennox' and 'that girl from London', ..but, this isn't a bar.
    Last edited by MelDyer; 11-28-2012 at 06:35 AM.
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  11. #56
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I think you're making my point for me. We should get those important biographical facts that are relevant--or, if you prefer, organic--to the story being told. How Wonder Woman pays for her apartment isn't organic to the current story, so in my view, Azzarello is right not to deal with it until there is a story to which it can be organic. And how she pays for her apartment doesn't have to be an organic part of every Wonder Woman story; if we think about it, I'm sure we can come up with some good ones where it barely came up or didn't come up at all.
    I dont know about you, but when I go to work I dont just talk about work. Stuff comes up in the course of conversation that has nothing to do with work. Which is all people are asking for here - some of those real life moments when you have a conversation about stuff other than superheroing.


    Yep. One of the wonderful things about kids at that age is that they sometimes seem to want to ask about everything all at once. But this comic isn't written for eight-year olds. Hopefully, we're still curious, but a little more patient and a little more selective in the questions that we think need to be answered at any given moment.
    Fifteen months is patient enough.


    No, I'm not saying that you and everyone--and I acknowledge once again, you're far from the only one-- who is anxious details about her life in the five-year gap is like an eight-year old. And I'm not saying you're wrong to want that information. I'm just saying that Azz isn't wrong not to provide it all right now. I'm glad he's saying focused on his story. Their are different tastes and different styles, and more than one of them is legitimate.
    Yes, and his story is so drawn out it is no longer economically practical for me. If we trimmed some of those massive panels from this issue or maybe put more than one speech bubble in a panel you could have used another whole page to show Zola and Lennox having an actual human conversation.
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  12. #57
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I think you're making my point for me. We should get those important biographical facts that are relevant--or, if you prefer, organic--to the story being told. How Wonder Woman pays for her apartment isn't organic to the current story, so in my view, Azzarello is right not to deal with it until there is a story to which it can be organic. And how she pays for her apartment doesn't have to be an organic part of every Wonder Woman story; if we think about it, I'm sure we can come up with some good ones where it barely came up or didn't come up at all.



    That would have been odd, but it's not what I said. It was more like this: Don't nail down everything just for the sake of nailing it down; only nail things down when doing so enhances the story you are telling about the character. Or, if you'd like another child-related analogy, try this: take the toys that you actually intend to play with out of the box and have fun with them, but leave the rest for the next person to play with.



    Yep. One of the wonderful things about kids at that age is that they sometimes seem to want to ask about everything all at once. But this comic isn't written for eight-year olds. Hopefully, we're still curious, but a little more patient and a little more selective in the questions that we think need to be answered at any given moment.

    No, I'm not saying that you and everyone--and I acknowledge once again, you're far from the only one-- who is anxious details about her life in the five-year gap is like an eight-year old. And I'm not saying you're wrong to want that information. I'm just saying that Azz isn't wrong not to provide it all right now. I'm glad he's saying focused on his story. Their are different tastes and different styles, and more than one of them is legitimate.
    I think one of the key points some of us are trying to make is that we could have gotten some of these details in a natural, organic way in the first 15 issues if the main story weren't so decompressed. Patience is something that I have, but the industry as a whole, including WW, seems to be dragging stories out while charging us more money and/or cutting back on page counts (while still giving us multi-page previews of other books in the back - GIVE ME STORY INSTEAD!! ;) ) to the point that I don't feel like I'm even close to getting my money's worth. A good story that slowly unfolds is great - a good story that unfolds at a glacial pace not so much, and a good story that unfolds that slowly while leaving gaping holes in the character's background is a bit frustrating.

    Btw, the scene with Hermes and Zola on Themyscira is a perfect example of the kinds of things that are organic, fit in the story and still fill us in. Problem is, we're not getting much of those kinds of moments regarding Diana's life prior to issue 1.

  13. #58
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From Room X View Post
    ...From #1 this run has been all about taking Diana out of her comfort zone (i.e home, Paradise Island) and putting her in strange, unfamiliar places and situations.

    Brian Azzarello already said in the beginning of his run that Wonder Woman doesn't have a secret identity. She is always WW. So there is no question of her turning out to be a hooker or something else.
    I like that Diana doesn't have a secret identity, just fine, and I am convinced that her life is no secret to anyone. By now, with her living in a lavish suite somewhere and wearing stylish clothes, playing with ropes, ..everyone HAS to know Diana's a prostitute or some kind of high-end call girl. You'd have to be a complete idiot not to. If she deals drugs on the side, I'm sure everybody in her building [?] or hotel [?] or mansion [?] knows that too.

    No biggie.

    I like very much that Mr. Azzarello brings us a Wonder Woman, who travels about the globe AND other dimensions, having strange and memorable adventures! That's the Golden Age Wondy in a nutshell! That's the classic Marston Wonder Woman, and anybody, who doesn't see that, needs to give this series a second look. I am seriously LOVING that aspect of the new Wondy's adventures and have been very vocal about how much I've wanted to see that pulpy element returned to this title.

    Just think it's going a little too slowly and too murkily.

    Let me say emphatically that most of my problems with Wonder Woman lay firmly at the feet of this comic book's editors. Good editors work with an artist to bring the best of what that artist creates to the public in the most accessible way possible, while also dealing with the minute details of genre, tone, style, grammar and the limitations of one medium or another, ..and I don't think that's happening in Wonder Woman. I don't think the expectations for editorial stewardship of this title, as articulated in my OP, are so unreasonable, ..but, for whatever undisclosed reason, the editors have chosen not to carry them out.

    And that's what we, the loyal, little, know-nuthin' comic fan ..plunking down our three-plus bucks, every month ..are paying the editors to do. They can fix this comic, simply by doing their jobs.

    Why isn't that happening?

    I want to close with something snarky about shrieking primates, in little, wire-framed spectacles and Brooks Brothers suits, sitting around a conference table - sketches of Wonder Woman scattered before them - but, I digress, ..knowing the moderator will probably ban me ..for life. Arg! The temptation!
    Last edited by MelDyer; 11-28-2012 at 08:13 AM. Reason: grammar, clarity, humor, tone, bile
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    In a bar, everybody's just 'Zola' and 'Lennox' and 'that girl from London', ..but, this isn't a bar.
    No, nor is Zola, for instance, just Zola. She's a young woman whose father is in prison and whose mother is dead; who lived alone, but for horses, on a farm near Olivburn (sp?), VA, and who goes to the Olivburn clinic for her medical needs; who isn't ashamed that she "like[s] men" and has some casual sex; who has the guts and loyalty to drive a truck into the Sun to help her friends, rather than running away; who is also brave enough to use her shotgun to hold off crowds of shades in Hell; who doesn't always do what she's told, even when Wonder Woman is doing the telling; who is wise enough to recognize Wonder Woman's need for community and bold enough to remind her of her need for family; who can be bitchy enough to start to earn Strife's respect (in #4); who is somewhat more of a realist and less of an idealist than Wonder Woman, based on how they hear Lennox's story differently in #5; who apparently did some mean things to fireflies in her youth, and has a ways to go before she can be considered an able combatant in wars of words with gods; who can be, as Lennox says, a "firecracker" with a bit of a temper; who doesn't like tomatoes for breakfast; and so on. That's more than I know about most people in a bar. Actually, that's more than I know about a lot of people whose last names I do know.

  15. #60
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Indeed. Those comics are wonderful.

    My comic buying has fallen off as well. If there are well written novels I would rather read them - much better value for money. Its just lucky for the comic companies that I have run out of Song of Ice and Fire books to read

    Of course the bad news is I can pick up a DVD box set for the price of two weeks comics and it will keep me entertained for twenty times as long
    Back in the day, you could get maps of lairs, and detailed outlines regarding powers and abilities, I haven't seen this in quite some time. People eat this stuff up. I know I love it. It's like a little gem in the back of the comic. Fun stuff. Azz might not work that way, but he could do little write ups of the gods, their history, etc. Maybe writers are getting a little lazy nowadays? It's just all about the page count. Yeah, I can see that side of it... Good points. I remember Defenders, there was the story, and sometimes in the back of the comic there would be a "bonus" like a character write up with a hero or villan's history and powers/abilities, or the Defender's lair, or the Sanctum Sanctorum. A letter's page. Bendis got me hooked on Powers, not so much as the comic itself, though it was good, because he took the time to answer his fans and make hilarious (and vulgar) remarks to their questions. Just that little extra...

    Hmm...

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