The Bad Guys of AvX?

[XPac]

1- Scot did his research, in fact he was MARRIED to his research and happend to be right.
2- Wanda, Iron Fist so on are irrelevant, Cap didnt know that would happen, he didnt have a plan, he just wanted the girl. All this developed AFTER he got the girl not as a reason to go for her. And not to mention Iron Fist just pulled a deus machina that happened to fall on caps lap because he had the girl, might as well have fallen on Cikes. Again the whole flaw on the Justification for the Avengers is that Cap DID NOT actually have a plan, he wanted to call the shots.

He happened to be right, and he also happened to be wrong. Again, Hope wasn't able to control the Phoenix... we saw that on the moon. And she herself said so. She needed additional training, which came from the Avengers on Kun Lun. And Scott didn't know that.

As far as Iron Fist and Wanda being irrelavent... again, the actual books tell us they were needed. If can dislike that if you want, but that's what the actual books tell us.

Again, I realize some X-fans might want the story to be Scott being 100% right and the Avengers being completely unecessary, but honestly does anyone think marvel would tell that story? Of course not. It's a team up so obviously they're going to tell a story where both sides were right and both sides were needed. And that's what we got, even if some wish otherwise.

[xxvaderxx]

He happened to be right, and he also happened to be wrong. Again, Hope wasn't able to control the Phoenix... we saw that on the moon. And she herself said so. She needed additional training, which came from the Avengers on Kun Lun. And Scott didn't know that.

The problem is Cap didnt know this either, Iron fist whent to look for whom ever had the girl at the moment. Thus providing no justification to Cap what so ever.

Again, I realize some X-fans might want the story to be Scott being 100% right and the Avengers being completely unecessary, but honestly does anyone think marvel would tell that story? Of course not. It's a team up so obviously they're going to tell a story where both sides were right and both sides were needed. And that's what we got, even if some wish otherwise.

The problem is not that the Avengers have to be right somewhere, the problem is that as it was written they are right because they are the Avengers and that is about it. They had no Justification, no plan. In fact the whole story could be done with out the Avengers, their involvement is forced and it shows. You can simply add a few lines, the witch and iron fist to an X comic and you get the exact same plot line, replace the avengers with generic villain Z that wants to seize hope and thats it, the Avengers are only there to mess it up by wanting to do it their way, which is exactly what they do when stark shots the phoenix, they dont know what but it has to be their way, that is their whole contribution to the storyline.

[XPac]

The problem is Cap didnt know this either, Iron fist whent to look for whom ever had the girl at the moment. Thus providing no justification to Cap what so ever.



The problem is not that the Avengers have to be right somewhere, the problem is that as it was written they are right because they are the Avengers and that is about it. They had no Justification, no plan. In fact the whole story could be done with out the Avengers, their involvement is forced and it shows. You can simply add a few lines, the witch and iron fist to an X comic and you get the exact same plot line, the Avengers are only there to mess it up by wanting to do it their way, they dont know what but it has to be their way, that is their whole contribution to the storyline.

I think Caps actions under the circumstances were pretty justified. Phoenix was destroying every single planet between it and Hope. Moving Hope so that earth wasn't between Phoenix and her made sense at the time, given what they knew. Right or wrong, it made sense.

And given the fact that the key players in assisting Hope were Wanda, Iron Fist, Iron Man, and Spider-Man I think it's pretty fair to argue the Avengers ended up being needed in the story. In fact, you could frankly almost argue that the only X-Men really needed to save the day was actually Hope. The rest in the end were just sort of extra muscle to help fight Scott. The single most important character was of course Hope, an X-Men... but the next 4-5 were Avengers. And again, that was the balance there.

[MagSeven]

And Steve what? just happened to drive by the isolated Island with a few Jets and an Army when he decided to drop by for afternoon tea?.


Because if i got anything out of this, is that if you disagree with Cap, he will come get you with an Army, but "it is for your own good".

Caps army was cloaked. No X-man knew they were there until Cyclops attacked first. Cap is lucky he had the foresight to bring backup or else Cyclops would have held him in a Utopian cell or had Illyana send him to Hell. Literally.

[MagSeven]

Sure, and if you want to paint it that way, Cyclops was right to begin with, might they not have interfered and invaded their home, things might have gone a little smother. It might be me, but i imagine the most powerful telepathy in the world and people who actually had experience with it, might have done well in pep talking her, if she was not busy escaping say an army invading her home.

Exactly. The Phoenix would have smothered the planet with flames when it occupied an unprepared host in Hope. Without the Avengers buying time for her to get prepared to control it, Earth go bye-bye.

[xxvaderxx]

Caps army was cloaked. No X-man knew they were there until Cyclops attacked first. Cap is lucky he had the foresight to bring backup or else Cyclops would have held him in a Utopian cell or had Illyana send him to Hell. Literally.

Seriously you are going for that angle?. Even if you want to push it, after Cyke stuned him, he was given the option to leave, he desided call an army and invade the Xmen home instead.

[DiceRoll]

The problem is not that the Avengers have to be right somewhere, the problem is that as it was written they are right because they are the Avengers and that is about it. They had no Justification, no plan. In fact the whole story could be done with out the Avengers, their involvement is forced and it shows. You can simply add a few lines, the witch and iron fist to an X comic and you get the exact same plot line, replace the avengers with generic villain Z that wants to seize hope and thats it, the Avengers are only there to mess it up by wanting to do it their way, which is exactly what they do when stark shots the phoenix, they dont know what but it has to be their way, that is their whole contribution to the storyline.

That just about sums it up, really.

[MagSeven]

Seriously you are going for that angle?. Even if you want to push it, after Cyke stuned him, he was given the option to leave, he desided call an army and invade the Xmen home instead.

He attacked a government official acting on a Presidential Order. Cyke was in the wrong.

[xxvaderxx]

He attacked a government official acting on a Presidential Order. Cyke was in the wrong.

Since when has this mattered much in super hero commics in particular the x men?. Also if we are going to follow a trend, Rogers did the same thing and was also proven right after the fact.

And given the fact that the key players in assisting Hope were Wanda, Iron Fist, Iron Man, and Spider-Man I think it's pretty fair to argue the Avengers ended up being needed in the story.

I would agree with you if Cap had known this since day one, as it was written, he was making things up as they went along. Wanda is a Mutant, Iron Fist went after the Girl regardless who had her, might have gotten there sooner if Cap hadnt started a war. The only real pure Avenger relevant to their involvement is Spiderman, Stark could have as well shot the thing with the deep space team, which is the only thing that actually made sense and was not grasping for straws on behalf of the avengers.

[XPac]

Seriously you are going for that angle?. Even if you want to push it, after Cyke stuned him, he was given the option to leave, he desided call an army and invade the Xmen home instead.

He could have ignored the fact that Cyclops shot at him, but again... the problem was the Phoenix was heading towards earth and literally destroying every planet in it's path. He wanted to take custody of Hope and get her the hell off the planet. You can certainly argue Cyclops had valid reason to object, but I think Steve's side was pretty reasonable too.

[MagSeven]

Since when has this mattered much in super hero commics in particular the x men?. Also if we are going to follow a trend, Rogers did the same thing and was also proven right after the fact.

Proven right? Registration still passed. Cyclops was proven right that the Phoenix came to repower mutants. But he was wrong in not having prepared Hope to handle it first. If Cap would have just turned around and went home, both teams would soon have to fight "Dark Hope" and they'd probably lose. Yes both sides did some incredibly stupid things in this crossover, but ultimately, if not for the Avenger's intervention, the world would have been destroyed.

[XPac]

Since when has this mattered much in super hero commics in particular the x men?. Also if we are going to follow a trend, Rogers did the same thing and was also proven right after the fact.



I would agree with you if Cap had known this since day one, as it was written, he was making things up as they went along. Wanda is a Mutant, Iron Fist went after the Girl regardless who had her, might have gotten there sooner if Cap hadnt started a war. The only real pure Avenger relevant to their involvement is Spiderman, Stark could have as well shot the thing with the deep space team, which is the only thing that actually made sense and was not grasping for straws on behalf of the avengers.

Again, one can argue Scott started the war when Scott decided to shoot at Scott.

As far as Scott working with Wanda... I'm a bit skeptical on that front. I think Scott actually trusted Wanda less than she trusted Steve. And truthfully I can't entirely fault him for that.

But ultimately the problem was Scott wanted to handle the situation himself. He said it was a mutant problem. And that's all well and good, except for the fact that this particular problem needed outside help. Hope was smart enough to realize that... it's why she left Utopia and ended up working with the Avengers. Hell, eventually the entire X-Men team followed. For this specific situation, the Avengers luckily were the right collection of people to handle things.

[XPac]

Proven right? Registration still passed. Cyclops was proven right that the Phoenix came to repower mutants. But he was wrong in not having prepared Hope to handle it first. If Cap would have just turned around and went home, both teams would soon have to fight "Dark Hope" and they'd probably lose. Yes both sides did some incredibly stupid things in this crossover, but ultimately, if not for the Avenger's intervention, the world would have been destroyed.

As ugly as things got, I think in a lot of ways you could argue that things essentially ended up the way they needed to end up.

If not for the conflict between the teams, it's possible that Wanda might not have gotten involved (as she only showed up after getting that Vision of the Avengers being killed). And Stark might not have created his Phoenix buster, which was needed to buy them time since the Phoenix arrived before Hope could get the proper training in Kun Lun. Through circumstance and a little bit of dumb luck, I think things essentially happened for a reason. If things occured differently it's very possible we might not have gotten the end result they needed.

[xxvaderxx]

This is just Civil War ver 2.0

No one is really the bad guy.

But one was clearly right and the other clearly wrong, just ask Aunt May.

[MagSeven]

As ugly as things got, I think in a lot of ways you could argue that things essentially ended up the way they needed to end up.

If not for the conflict between the teams, it's possible that Wanda might not have gotten involved (as she only showed up after getting that Vision of the Avengers being killed). And Stark might not have created his Phoenix buster, which was needed to buy them time since the Phoenix arrived before Hope could get the proper training in Kun Lun. Through circumstance and a little bit of dumb luck, I think things essentially happened for a reason. If things occured differently it's very possible we might not have gotten the end result they needed.

I agree 100%. No one was completely right or wrong.