Superman, #14

[sandmountainslim]

Chill out! Does no one remember the Superman/Wonderwoman Kiss from Action #600?? This will be the same just a passing thing and neither will want to be a couple.

[misslane38]

- All I'm saying is, she seems to find the time to talk to him when it suits her, so saying she didn't have the opportunity doesn't feel quite right to me.

Clark wasn't around for almost a week before the moving in thing happened, so when exactly was she supposed to talk things over with him? How can Clark get upset about Lois not sharing things with him when he doesn't seem to put in any effort at all to speak to her as a friend? He would rather spy on her text messages than ask Lois what is going on in her life.

-But it's not about wether or not Clark could/should have taken clues.

He should have been more perceptive. Lois notices when Clark is happier than usual and she calls him on it, but it seems Clark doesn't notice anything about Lois unless he invades her privacy.

It's about the fact that Lois is all "we're still best super pal as ever" when she asks him to do stuff or when she thinks she knows better than him what he should do, only for her to hide things from him on purpose.

Oh, please. Lois doesn't just talk to Clark in order to get him to do stuff for her. She's called him just to see how he's doing, but Clark doesn't pick up the phone to talk. She notices when he's acting strange. She hid the Jonathan thing from Clark because of how much she believes in their friendship. As Lois told Clark, her motivation for being secretive was because she believed Clark was the only person who knew her well enough to talk her out of moving in with Jonathan.

And when you add to that that she just seems to assume that him making a stand against his boss is somehow connected to her

Clark's behavior does not make it easy for Lois to get a different impression. I think it is poor logic to assume that Lois has the same insight into Clark's true motivations that we do as readers.

, plus all the things Clark did here, well.....I'd say those two have a really fucked up relationship (by the way, my memories of issue 11 are kind of vague, but all I remember from Clark is reluctantly acknowledging that Johnattan is a decent guy, which isn't exactly contradicted here -Clark does say he thinks Jon is a "great guy"). But I really don't agree that Clark should have known better because of issue 11.

Clark acknowledged Jonathan was Lois' "current beau" in that issue. He knew they were in a relationship at that time, so the idea of them moving in shouldn't have been a complete surprise. By the time Clark knew Lois was moving in with Jon, he also knew that Jon was more than a random booty call. The comment was out of line.

It was a classic double date which was partially set up to hook Clark with her sister, a double date that has been suggested in the same dialogue than the one where she tells him Johnattan is "just a friend" (and she even says he doesn't live in the same city). Calling the "random booty call" to be the second one in a dinner you pretty much set up to hook two persons together isn't exactly unheard of.

It's unheard of when Clark himself referred to Jonathan as Lois' "current beau" during the dinner scene.

[Superlad93]

Not true. There were times throughout the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Ages, including television and film incarnations, that showed Lois could be interested in Clark if he was being more himself a.k.a. Superman (I recommend reading Action Comics #484 a.k.a. Superman Takes a Wife). You have to understand that during the Pre-Crisis era, Clark Kent was a farce who was not a true representation of the man underneath. Lois Lane always falls in love with Clark when he isn't just a mask. In the other incarnations you mentioned, like Superman: The Animated Series, Lois does seem to have more romantic feelings for Superman than Clark. However, at no point during the series is it clear that the only way Lois would ever love Clark is if she knew he was Superman. She simply was not tested in that way.



Lois has fallen in love with Clark without knowing he was Superman in every incarnation for the past 30 years. Before then, she fell in love with Superman rather than Clark because Clark wasn't real. He was a joke and a lie. Why should Lois fall in love with that? Why should a woman who prizes courage, truth, and justice settle for a man who runs from danger, lies all the time, and is too afraid to confront evil? An even better question is why Clark or his fans should feel aggrieved in any way because Lois chose Superman over him when Superman almost always goes out of his way to woo Lois? It is incredibly unfair to fault Lois for preferring Superman to Clark when the man himself is doing his best to make her love the former and dismiss the latter. It also raises what I think should be uncomfortable questions about what the message is if Clark becomes what you accuse Lois of being, when he chooses the goddess and superhero, Diana, over the human and flawed, Lois.

Thing is Lois didn't know that he was a lie or a fake so she just didn't like the guy named Clark Kent simple as that. And the instances that you gave in the Golden and Silver ages were just that one off instances that were not the norm for Lois (IIRC you made a similar statement when some one call Lois pushy and annoying in another thread).

Also in the animated show my point is that it wasn't even a thought to put Clark and Lois together as opposed to Superman and Lois because that's not the mainstream norm.

But back to the point of the Golden and Silver age Clark and Lois: As I said before,Clark did not come out and say "hey so my Clark Kent persona is fake a so don't even bother with him". He left him as a normal person. Also what you said about Lois liking Clark if he were just a bit more like Superman just completely invalidates the whole point of Clark, because "if he were more like himself" then he would just be Superman, right? So then what would be the disguise?

But now look at this from Lois' pov and forget that you are the reader who know that Clark is Superman. You have just said to a man that you would like him, even love him, if you were just not you but this other guy here. As a person do you not see what's wrong with that?

As for your last set of questions: I have no personal problem with Lois picking Superman over Clark. To me it makes for interesting story and is something that really sets Superman's world apart from others in how he almost has this weird control power fantasy grip over his whole life. We you look at it from a purely objective stand point it's very creepy and alien-like, and I think that's really cool. The only reason I even pointed out the Superman, Lois, and Clark thing was just to give facts. I agree 110% that it's unfair for us to expect Lois to like Clark at all if he's gonna actively try and keep that from happening as he apparently grows more and more envious of his true heroic self. It's really messed up if you think about it, but I like that strange aspect of Superman's "perfect" personalty.

So when it comes to the Wonder Woman thing....well...I just don't care! I really don't care what it looks like thematically or whatever, and that's the feeling I get from them: their doing it cuz it just feels right and they're two kindred souls who like one another. I could sit here and give you what I think are really good thematic reasons as to why they could be together, but really it all boils down to I just like how obvious and in your face it is, like Uncle Sam dating the statue of liberty. It's so ridiculously obvious but we just didn't want it to happen! It's the two most beautiful and powerful people getting together and I just like that boldness.

Also he's not picking her over Lois, Lois friend zoned him.

[Auguste Dupin]

Clark wasn't around for almost a week before the moving in thing happened, so when exactly was she supposed to talk things over with him? How can Clark get upset about Lois not sharing things with him when he doesn't seem to put in any effort at all to speak to her as a friend? He would rather spy on her text messages than ask Lois what is going on in her life.



He should have been more perceptive. Lois notices when Clark is happier than usual and she calls him on it, but it seems Clark doesn't notice anything about Lois unless he invades her privacy.



Oh, please. Lois doesn't just talk to Clark in order to get him to do stuff for her. She's called him just to see how he's doing, but Clark doesn't pick up the phone to talk. She notices when he's acting strange. She hid the Jonathan thing from Clark because of how much she believes in their friendship. As Lois told Clark, her motivation for being secretive was because she believed Clark was the only person who knew her well enough to talk her out of moving in with Jonathan.



Clark's behavior does not make it easy for Lois to get a different impression. I think it is poor logic to assume that Lois has the same insight into Clark's true motivations that we do as readers.



Clark acknowledged Jonathan was Lois' "current beau" in that issue. He knew they were in a relationship at that time, so the idea of them moving in shouldn't have been a complete surprise. By the time Clark knew Lois was moving in with Jon, he also knew that Jon was more than a random booty call. The comment was out of line.



It's unheard of when Clark himself referred to Jonathan as Lois' "current beau" during the dinner scene.

-So, she has time to see that he looks happy, but not to talk to him? Interesting.

-Yeah, because it's not a classic Superman trope that him having to deal with his Superman stuff in addition of his personnal life makes him more oblivious to that kind of thing. Yeah, I dunno, I just tend to give people a pass for being oblivious when they have to worry about Hellspont coming back and destroying all life on Earth in addition of his working duties.

-But why would she even think that? That's what's making me wonder. What could Clark possibly have to say about it that would make her change her mind? It can't be that she knows he has feelings for her, because either the knowledge is enough to make her reconsider to move in, either she doesn't care enough for her to not so, then the fact Clark says it changes nothing. So what is she afraid of exactly?

-So, you're telling me that Clark yelling in public at his boss for turning the Planet into a mess and stating that he still believes in journalistic values was too subtle a clue for Lois to conclude that maybe it was about, y'know, the values? Rereading this, it just seems that she assumes that what has been bothering her had to be the reason he did what he did.

-You know, you really don't seem to get the "from random booty call to love of your life" thing. It's not about Clark being surprised they are still sort of together, or that she didn't just move to another sex friend. It's about him talking about how fast things are moving. "One minute, he's....., the next he's.....". There's a linearity implied, just one that is too fast for him. And at this point, he's not accusing her of anything. In fact, he never tried to push these two appart in any way.

[Superman Priime]

Chill out! Does no one remember the Superman/Wonderwoman Kiss from Action #400?? This will be the same just a passing thing and neither will want to be a couple.

Big difference between then and now--DC is saying the romance is real and will follow through on it. Now, whether is lasts for months, years or until the next major reboot is not known.

[Sacred Knight]

Chill out! Does no one remember the Superman/Wonderwoman Kiss from Action #400?? This will be the same just a passing thing and neither will want to be a couple.

Nope. They've in fact gone out of their way to point out that this time it won't be just a passing thing, and they will indeed become a couple. Its even apparently the focus of a future DCU-wide storyline regarding time travel.

[sandmountainslim]

Of course I meant Action #600 not 400. Type on my part.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

The whole Justice League is gonna be in superman to help him retake the Fortress of Solitude. Batman Is with Superboy and Flash is with Supergirl while Wonder Women and Cyborg are with Superman. Azzerrello already said Superman will not show up in his Run at all and his Editors and Dan Didio are just fine with it cause they don't want to interrupt his story's pace. You have to admit, Superman would be out of Place in the Brutal and Grey World that exists in the Wonder Women book. I think I like Wonder Women Flirting and trying a relationship when they are young and Kinda Growing in two different Directions because there are a few choices Diana makes that Clark would definitely would not approve of. Unless he is good with her Killing people.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they will break up. "Opposites attract". Also, I'm not saying that Supes should intervene in Wonder Woman's story (if Azz said he won't appear because it could interrupt the story in some way, I'm fine with it). Perhaps an epilogue or backup story when they talk about what's happening in their lives.

I have a friend now That I dated for like 2 years in high school before we broke up because we broke up because we just didnt fit together after we expanded our horizons. We are still friends to this day but I have no inclinations to pursue her Romantically anymore just. Thats Kind of How I see Wonder Women and Superman, Two young People who want some type of companionship since they are both Lonely at the moment and Are finding companionship in each other. They will take it in a Romantic way but I can see them eventually settling that they just don't work together that well anymore or that they are interested in other people Since Diana still has Unresolved things with Steve. and I hope Lois and Superman settle down so everyone can be reasonably happy with their life choics.

It can go both ways, as I said above. That's one way to look at things, and it's fine. But nothing's set in stone, I believe.

These are all fine opinions but for the most part I don't agree with them. I see the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship as taboo because of the level of their respective star power; to have two characters who are so famous on there own come together seems to just have a bit of an edge to it for me. It's very obvious from an average Joe stand point that the two would be good together, but as comic book fans we know different and we know the pit falls to it........but what if they still just went ahead and did it anyway? The in your face nature of the relationship (or the idea of the relationship) is what really entices me. You can look at the thematic said of it, fine, but that's not what I'm talking about and that's not all there is to be looked at.

Nothing is set in stone yet and DC could actually break them up and have them spend some time away from one another (date Lois ect.) but they may find that they were happiest with each other, that's not unheard of or out of the question especially when it comes to comics. It's already being shown that there attraction came at a bad time with the whole Steve thing and Lois stuff, the we have the trinity war coming up that they'll be right in the thick of. All of this will likely build up to a break up or an even bigger strain on their relationship, but there is just nothing that says they can't get back together or they can't over come all of this.

I really hope that whatever trials they may face in the future, they can overcome them together, thus making their relationship stronger.

[Terrifan2]

No. An ex-boyfriend named Jeb Friedman tried to take advantage of her in a vulnerable moment when she was grieving her late fiance, but she and him didn't date. She was very distracted and lost in her grief during their interactions.

I guess it has been a while since I have read the Return of Superman storyline. So I was not all that clear.

What, then, do you make of Batman's spying and Booster Gold's shocked reaction at their getting together? Just because the book is exploring their relationship doesn't mean that it's overall approach to them is one of complete validation and acceptance.

Not that I am saying you are out of context but a lot of American English words are taken out of context one is Taboo you seem right on the money with this. I looked up the word it meaning basically something sacred and not to touch and so I go with the literal meaning when I posed the question the writers did not think it was taboo and it is not according to them. I don't read the Batman comics but I do know in his nature to be suspicious of the relationship not that I say spying is right but that how he handles his reaction. As for Booster Gold never read the comics but I saw that pannel in Justice League International comic book he has right to be shocked about it. Wasn't he the one trying to prevent them from getting together in the first place or I could wrong about my assumption? I am just saying I don't agree with both characters reactions but they have every right to feel the way they do about the situation.
Also I will point out I am big on understanding things in context but that is just my nature. I hope this cleared up your curiousity about me.

[brik-el]

I know I'm going off topic here, but I just got my copy yesterday. I really enjoyed this chapter of Superman's life.
The Action was good enough to keep my interest. Some of the layouts at first were a bit weird. After you study them more you get to really appreciate what Rocafort is doing here.
All in all, 100% satisfied with Lobdell and Rocafort.
:)

[wrlord]

Wow. This is just abysmal.

This version of Superman is just awful. He sounds and looks like Peter Parker. Since when is Supes a hipster? Slapping a red cape on a a totally new characterization does not make him Superman, and this just ... isn't.

[Mr. Holmes]

Wow. This is just abysmal.

This version of Superman is just awful. He sounds and looks like Peter Parker. Since when is Supes a hipster? .

He wore hipster glasses decades before it became popular. He's the original hipster.

[Sacred Knight]

What I want to know is why some people like to pretend that Peter Parker, a character created over 3 decades after superhero comics began, holds some sort of trademark on a younger, wittier superhero. Because that's all that's going on here with Superman. He's being written younger, with a bit of a mouth (absolutely nothing new to Superman by the way, even the more mature pre-Flashpoint Superman had a smart-ass mouth at times).

[MFitzH2O]

My only beef is the 'best friend' line. Best friends? C'mon, force them to work together as competitors. 'Best friend', that ain't the Lois n'Clark dynamic I want in my not-dating, not-married Lois n'CLark. Let them have at it. FIGHT for the slot as #1.

[George Taylor]

What I want to know is why some people like to pretend that Peter Parker, a character created over 3 decades after superhero comics began, holds some sort of trademark on a younger, wittier superhero. Because that's all that's going on here with Superman. He's being written younger, with a bit of a mouth (absolutely nothing new to Superman by the way, even the more mature pre-Flashpoint Superman had a smart-ass mouth at times).

It's because some people think of Superman as this outdated, old fashioned icon who can't act as a young adult with some immature mannerisms even if this DCnU Superman is 27 years old. It's a made-up mindset, actually.