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Thread: Superman, #14

  1. #61
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Considering the big debate on the WW forum about wether or not Diana could/should be gay, that would be......an interesting move.
    Have Clark walk in on them in the last page of a book, with Clark looking to us in the last window with a Big Ass Grin on his face.
    Last edited by Lexrules; 11-27-2012 at 01:25 PM.

  2. #62
    Infme et fier de l'tre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    Have Clark walk in on them in the last page of a book and have Clark look to us in the last window with a Big Ass Grin on his face.
    "I should be upset by two of my love interests making out, but...."
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  3. #63
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    "I should be upset by two of my love interests making out, but...."
    Why would he be upset, he just hit the Jackpot....

  4. #64
    Infme et fier de l'tre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    Why would he be upset, he just hit the Jackpot....
    Only if he can join in.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  5. #65
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Only if he can join in.
    He's Superman. He can do anything and anyone.

  6. #66
    Junior Member Rainzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    Have Clark walk in on them in the last page of a book, with Clark looking to us in the last window with a Big Ass Grin on his face.
    That would be the best ending ever!
    Cerebral Assassin

  7. #67
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Well, I did say it depends on the writing didn't I? Let us agree on what "extraordinary rare", and we're talking.
    I would consider a characterization that happens in maybe 3-4 issues a year or 3-4 episodes in a television season to be extraordinarily rare.

    -Yep, Perry's not perfect.....and neither is Lois. Regardless of the vaue of her complains, this kind of thing is the proof that she thinks highly of herself. And yes, arrogance is a trait I can see annoying people, be it in universe and in the readership. And as much as I do believe Perry respects Lois, I wouldn't say he "admires" her. Perry White is generally portrayed as the Lois Lane of his generation. He knows the tricks, he learned them the hard way. He recognises her value, sure. But I don't remember him ever stating he "admires" her, and I don't think he's really the type to admire his employees.
    Lois thinks highly of herself because she has self-confidence. She's typically won a Pulitzer before she's 30 years-old, she does her job well, and she's personally helped the powerful and powerless. The most powerful men in the world either love her or fear her. She has every reason to believe she's someone whose opinions are worth taking into consideration.

    -Yeah, and they were about the same lengh as the reasons to fire her. Appart from the "where to hide her body" part of course. I think it's a pretty good description of Lois Lane. Good at her job, good person but far from nice. The kind of person who would leave a bad impression after a superficial encounter, but that you learn to respect/admire/like whatever.
    The bottom line is: Lois Lane's good qualities outweigh the bad. The people who spend time with her and work closely with her know this about Lois. She's the kind of person whose flaws can be her greatest strength and her greatest weakness.

  8. #68
    Infme et fier de l'tre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I would consider a characterization that happens in maybe 3-4 issues a year or 3-4 episodes in a television season to be extraordinarily rare.



    Lois thinks highly of herself because she has self-confidence. She's typically won a Pulitzer before she's 30 years-old, she does her job well, and she's personally helped the powerful and powerless. The most powerful men in the world either love her or fear her. She has every reason to believe she's someone whose opinions are worth taking into consideration.



    The bottom line is: Lois Lane's good qualities outweigh the bad. The people who spend time with her and work closely with her know this about Lois. She's the kind of person whose flaws can be her greatest strength and her greatest weakness.
    -3-4 issues a year is not so rare actually. I mean, there's 24 issues of Superman a year. That makes it about 1/6 of her on panel time.

    -It can be extremely annoying, though, as Perry White's reaction to the whole scene clearly indicates. Because, well, there's saying "my opinion is worth hearing" and saying "whoa, guys, what you're doing just suck." Honestly, I think most of the time, she crosses self confidence to go into arrogance territory (and I don't have a problem with it, by the way).

    -Sure, however, Lois's flaws tend to be more easily noticable the first time you meet her. As I said, this is the kind of person that people find infuriating when they stumble accros her on the street. She's loud mouthed, easy to hold grudge during extremely long period of time , dissmisive of opinions and people she doesn't like, doesn't seem to make the difference between "bravery" and "knocking at the bad guy's door so she can have an exclusive" (although recent continuities tend to attone this aspect), and tends to pass her work before anything else (which is a flaw, as far as interracting with people goes). All of this make her a person you don't befriend easily, and I can see why some readers can have a hard time with her.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  9. #69
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -3-4 issues a year is not so rare actually. I mean, there's 24 issues of Superman a year. That makes it about 1/6 of her on panel time.
    I'm talking about perhaps one line in one issue, though; not the entirety of her characterization in a book.

    -It can be extremely annoying, though, as Perry White's reaction to the whole scene clearly indicates. Because, well, there's saying "my opinion is worth hearing" and saying "whoa, guys, what you're doing just suck." Honestly, I think most of the time, she crosses self confidence to go into arrogance territory (and I don't have a problem with it, by the way).
    Besides this one example from Birthright, do you have any other examples? If it is as common a trait as you seem to believe it is, then I would imagine it would be quite easy to enumerate at least 5-10 instances of Lois behaving similarly.

    -Sure, however, Lois's flaws tend to be more easily noticable the first time you meet her.
    Her strengths are noticeable, too.

    As I said, this is the kind of person that people find infuriating when they stumble accros her on the street.
    I have not seen this sort of reaction to Lois on the page or on screen. She tends to rub some people the wrong way, but the reaction your ascribing to her is not universal.

    She's loud mouthed
    It's funny, though. Whenever Clark is loud mouthed, everyone here seems to love it. Usually when Lois is being a loud mouth, it's because she's speaking the truth or standing up to bullies. Weak, insecure, cowards tend not to like that, I guess.

    easy to hold grudge during extremely long period of time
    I can only think of one instance of this happening. At the beginning of the Post-Crisis era, Lois held a grudge against Clark for a while because he scooped her on a story, which won him a job on par with hers. She had worked her ass off for years to break through the glass ceiling at the Daily Planet, so you bet she was going to be angry when a relatively inexperienced guy walked in off the street to have everything handed to him. And, what's worse, as soon as you're ready to forgive him, he reveals that the only reason he's been scooping you and getting all the accolades at the office is because of nepotism: he grew up with Superman. Some grudges are worth holding onto, I think.

    dissmisive of opinions and people she doesn't like
    The only people Lois doesn't like are people who are fake, cowards, bullies, or downright evil. I'd hope she'd be dismissive of their opinions.

    doesn't seem to make the difference between "bravery" and "knocking at the bad guy's door so she can have an exclusive" (although recent continuities tend to attone this aspect)
    Lois hardly knocks on bad guys' doors. If she knows she's dealing with a villain, then she'll go undercover or sneak around. I can't even recall the last time something like this happened.

    and tends to pass her work before anything else (which is a flaw, as far as interracting with people goes)
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

    All of this make her a person you don't befriend easily, and I can see why some readers can have a hard time with her.
    Readers reacting to Lois in the way you described would make sense if they were only exposed to the sort of surface level interactions you referenced. Yet, readers are typically exposed to all of the facets of Lois Lane, which adds layers to the character. We also know why she behaves the way she does and can see how her behavior often contributes to the greater good. In other words, readers come away with a list close to Perry's list in Birthright. And, like Perry, the good ultimately outweighs the bad.

  10. #70
    Infme et fier de l'tre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I'm talking about perhaps one line in one issue, though; not the entirety of her characterization in a book.



    Besides this one example from Birthright, do you have any other examples? If it is as common a trait as you seem to believe it is, then I would imagine it would be quite easy to enumerate at least 5-10 instances of Lois behaving similarly.



    Her strengths are noticeable, too.



    I have not seen this sort of reaction to Lois on the page or on screen. She tends to rub some people the wrong way, but the reaction your ascribing to her is not universal.



    It's funny, though. Whenever Clark is loud mouthed, everyone here seems to love it. Usually when Lois is being a loud mouth, it's because she's speaking the truth or standing up to bullies. Weak, insecure, cowards tend not to like that, I guess.



    I can only think of one instance of this happening. At the beginning of the Post-Crisis era, Lois held a grudge against Clark for a while because he scooped her on a story, which won him a job on par with hers. She had worked her ass off for years to break through the glass ceiling at the Daily Planet, so you bet she was going to be angry when a relatively inexperienced guy walked in off the street to have everything handed to him. And, what's worse, as soon as you're ready to forgive him, he reveals that the only reason he's been scooping you and getting all the accolades at the office is because of nepotism: he grew up with Superman. Some grudges are worth holding onto, I think.



    The only people Lois doesn't like are people who are fake, cowards, bullies, or downright evil. I'd hope she'd be dismissive of their opinions.



    Lois hardly knocks on bad guys' doors. If she knows she's dealing with a villain, then she'll go undercover or sneak around. I can't even recall the last time something like this happened.



    I'm not sure I understand what you mean.



    Readers reacting to Lois in the way you described would make sense if they were only exposed to the sort of surface level interactions you referenced. Yet, readers are typically exposed to all of the facets of Lois Lane, which adds layers to the character. We also know why she behaves the way she does and can see how her behavior often contributes to the greater good. In other words, readers come away with a list close to Perry's list in Birthright. And, like Perry, the good ultimately outweighs the bad.
    -And I'm supposed to know this how?

    - Yeah, because I'm going to quote all the times she's arguing with Perry because she thinks she knows better than him (the Doomsday movie, Earth One, the Timm cartoon.....).

    -Never said they were not. Just because I think she has flaws doesn't mean I don't find her qualities, and admirable ones at that. But you have a hard time not simplifying thing at your convenience, don't you?

    -I was more making a comparaison with what people find in real life.

    -Because Clark isn't calling collegues dismissive nicknames, and don't keep arguing with his boss about how his paper is front page material instead of Superman saving people (the comic based on the Superman cartoon, I think). Loud mouthing, like most things, is a quality or a flaw depending on how you use it. Lois does it both ways: she stands for the weak.....and complains about trivial stuff.

    - If you think holding grudged against a guy for years (the Man of Steel ends years after it starts) just because (as far as she knows) the guy as been better/more lucky than is a healthy behaviour.....;I would advise you to think again. The simple fact she has been holding a grudge long enough to have the Kent make some shit up about Superman been raised in the garage without nobody noticing (how did she even believe that) is pure insanity. As Perry says "it happens to the best."

    - Because cowards can't have valid opinions, mmm?

    -Fleisher cartoon. First episode. She does just that. Many episodes of the Golden Age (the one in the orphanage for instance....sure Lois, gloats to the guy with the wip about how you're going to reveal everything to the cop), the entirety of the Silver Age, the Doomsday cartoon (sure, enter the car full of children with the Toyman on it, it's not like he's going to be pissed and throw you out of the building).....I did say it was less present in recent years, you will notice.

    -Simple:most of the time, she has no life outside of work. These kind of people tend to realize at some point their life just suck and fall into depression. It's a personnal flaw, just one that is more problematic for herthan for other people.

    -Only because they wouldn't know where to hide the body.
    More seriously, it's not something as objective as making a list. Some people wouldn't see her flaws as such (like you, as I take it), others would find them so unbearable they just don't find the character enjoyable to read about despite her many qualitites. Others see them but consider them as part of what make the character what she is (that's where I would put myself if I had to). That's called the joys of opinion.

  11. #71
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -And I'm supposed to know this how?
    Common sense.

    Yeah, because I'm going to quote all the times she's arguing with Perry because she thinks she knows better than him (the Doomsday movie, Earth One, the Timm cartoon.....).
    Did she know better than him? Because, if I recall, in most cases, she did. That's not arrogance, that's brilliance.

    -Never said they were not. Just because I think she has flaws doesn't mean I don't find her qualities, and admirable ones at that. But you have a hard time not simplifying thing at your convenience, don't you?
    My comment was a general comment not aimed at you, but thanks for making it personal.

    -I was more making a comparaison with what people find in real life.
    In real life, I suspect you would fine the same variability.

    -Because Clark isn't calling collegues dismissive nicknames, and don't keep arguing with his boss about how his paper is front page material instead of Superman saving people (the comic based on the Superman cartoon, I think). Loud mouthing, like most things, is a quality or a flaw depending on how you use it. Lois does it both ways: she stands for the weak.....and complains about trivial stuff.
    Clark does argue with his boss and he has been dismissive of his colleagues. Perry isn't a saint either. They all have good days and bad days. I can't recall the last time Lois used her big mouth to complain about trivial stuff.

    - If you think holding grudged against a guy for years (the Man of Steel ends years after it starts) just because (as far as she knows) the guy as been better/more lucky than is a healthy behaviour.....;I would advise you to think again. The simple fact she has been holding a grudge long enough to have the Kent make some shit up about Superman been raised in the garage without nobody noticing (how did she even believe that) is pure insanity. As Perry says "it happens to the best."
    Have you ever been a woman who had to work twice as hard to get just as far as a man? I'm guess you haven't, so I'd advise you to think again before you pass judgment on Lois for responding to Clark the way she did in the Post-Crisis era.

    - Because cowards can't have valid opinions, mmm?
    It depends on the opinion. If, as cowards, their opinions tend to revolve around standing back and let the bad guys win, then those opinions are absolutely invalid.

    -Fleisher cartoon. First episode. She does just that. Many episodes of the Golden Age (the one in the orphanage for instance....sure Lois, gloats to the guy with the wip about how you're going to reveal everything to the cop), the entirety of the Silver Age, the Doomsday cartoon (sure, enter the car full of children with the Toyman on it, it's not like he's going to be pissed and throw you out of the building).....I did say it was less present in recent years, you will notice.
    The entirety of the Silver Age? That's BS. I've read Silver Age comics, you are exaggerating. The same could be said about the Golden Age. As we've both said, Lois Lane hasn't been written that way for nearly 30 years now. When it happens, it's rare. Because it's a rare and outdated trope most commonly found during eras in which sexist writing was the norm, I have a difficult time understanding why it would be a reason readers would be turned off of the character.

    -Simple:most of the time, she has no life outside of work. These kind of people tend to realize at some point their life just suck and fall into depression. It's a personnal flaw, just one that is more problematic for herthan for other people.
    What does this have to do with Lois being perceived as an unlikeable character or someone who would be disliked by people who merely make her acquaintance?

    More seriously, it's not something as objective as making a list. Some people wouldn't see her flaws as such (like you, as I take it), others would find them so unbearable they just don't find the character enjoyable to read about despite her many qualitites. Others see them but consider them as part of what make the character what she is (that's where I would put myself if I had to). That's called the joys of opinion.
    Those who allow Lois's outward displays of confidence and bravado to obscure the good, faithful, and compassionate person she truly is are people who are doing the opposite of what they would like Lois to do for Clark: see behind the mask to the true hero within.

  12. #72
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    lol, reading the posts by fans upset (obsessed?) by lois and clark not being in a relationship is giving me flashbacks to my mom arguing with her friends about the relationships on her soaps XD

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    Not a big fan of Lois outside of Smallville's version so this doesn't bother me at all.

  14. #74
    Infme et fier de l'tre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Common sense.



    Did she know better than him? Because, if I recall, in most cases, she did. That's not arrogance, that's brilliance.



    My comment was a general comment not aimed at you, but thanks for making it personal.



    In real life, I suspect you would fine the same variability.



    Clark does argue with his boss and he has been dismissive of his colleagues. Perry isn't a saint either. They all have good days and bad days. I can't recall the last time Lois used her big mouth to complain about trivial stuff.



    Have you ever been a woman who had to work twice as hard to get just as far as a man? I'm guess you haven't, so I'd advise you to think again before you pass judgment on Lois for responding to Clark the way she did in the Post-Crisis era.



    It depends on the opinion. If, as cowards, their opinions tend to revolve around standing back and let the bad guys win, then those opinions are absolutely invalid.



    The entirety of the Silver Age? That's BS. I've read Silver Age comics, you are exaggerating. The same could be said about the Golden Age. As we've both said, Lois Lane hasn't been written that way for nearly 30 years now. When it happens, it's rare. Because it's a rare and outdated trope most commonly found during eras in which sexist writing was the norm, I have a difficult time understanding why it would be a reason readers would be turned off of the character.



    What does this have to do with Lois being perceived as an unlikeable character or someone who would be disliked by people who merely make her acquaintance?



    Those who allow Lois's outward displays of confidence and bravado to obscure the good, faithful, and compassionate person she truly is are people who are doing the opposite of what they would like Lois to do for Clark: see behind the mask to the true hero within.
    -No. Common sense is to think that when you say issue, you mean issue. You want people to think you talked about "lines"? Talk about lines.

    -Actually, I can't think think of a single time where she is stated to know better than him, at least in the example I gave. In Birthright we don't know. In Earth One, we're supposed to agree with Perry,in the Timm Cartoon.....well I can think of some examples where she is angry that the Superman story is before her story (which kind of a bit hypocritical since most of the time the Superman story was her story), in the Doomsday movie......well she is arguing about attacking Luthor so you could argue she is right, but Perry answer (in the lines of "accusations work better with proofs") is sound too.

    -Heh, did you notice you do have a tendency of accusing people of not getting what you're saying?

    -Well, if readership is anything to go by, she's kind of a "love her or hate her" kind of gal.

    -Yeah, right, because it's Clark's fault if women have to work harder to be taken seriously. The problem isn't even that she is pissed at him, that's understandable. The problem is that she is holding this grudge for years. That's just......That's just being obsessive, I'm sorry.

    - That's deliciously simplistic. I love it.

    -Because that's a trait strongly tied to her by popular culture. Like it or not, when you ask people on the street to describe you Lois, "the girl Superman always saves" always come back. It has been lampshaded in the comic. Mocked in parodies. It will never go always, just like the idea Superman is a boring invincible boyscout will never go away.

    -Nothing. It is still, however, a personnal flaw.

    - Like that one time she caused the death of Funky Flashman.
    What you're saying is right but, just like you can't ask Lois to have to look behind Clark's mask, you can't ask people to have to see behind Lois' mask. Which is, by the way, what I'm saying since the first post. See? We even agree.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  15. #75
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Sombrero View Post
    Well, what you see as "beta male," I see as "relatable." Addressing a major problem with Superman over the past generation.

    I guess I'm the wrong gender or something, cause I didn't find it relatable at all. The way he is handling his jealousy is a bit of a let down. I mean in the panels shown even Clark couldn't believe what he was saying and the fact that he spied on Lois. To me it just dosen't read like something Clark would do. It is great for drama and conflict but I don't know if its "Clark like". For me those panels are like totally approaching "Nice Guy" territory, I hope it stops. I would hope that Lois is his friend, not just a girl he had a crush on. There are so many possible reasons why Clark may feel that Lois should have told him about her moving in with Jonathan. If he just happened to find out about the move and then confronted Lois later I'd be with him. In this circumstance the spying just makes him look possessive. I hope the context that comes with the rest of the comic kills that impression. Or rather that future issues kill that impression. Because combined with the other issues that's all I'm getting. It's awesome for Clark to have flaws, it rounds out his character, but you don't have to turn him into a jerk to accomplish that.
    Last edited by Mecegirl; 11-28-2012 at 08:11 AM.

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