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  1. #1156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    And you seem to avoid explaining how exactly Final Crisis was filled with hypertext.
    Unless you already gave a good answer and I missed it, why are you avoiding this?
    You could just admit that you are wrong and that tylenoljones has been right since the beginning. At this point you seem to ignore the questions that would force you to admit that.

  2. #1157
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    So you're talking about something you know very little about? (Seriously, you've been going agains like 4 different people for days about something you know little about? Seriously, man?)
    And you seem to avoid explaining how exactly Final Crisis was filled with hypertext.
    Not to mention that of the three links he provided, two didn't work and one was just a mention of Borges' influence on Morrison's Doom Patrol.

    So how did we jump from that to Final Crisis being some kind of impossible to understand Borgesian Labyrinth? He really is just digging his hole deeper at this point.

  3. #1158
    Elder Member Karl O'Neill's Avatar
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    To be honest, without sounding like a bully.......dude, you copy and pasted definitions from wiki about Hypertext, if I was you I'd fade away.Rafa
    "You can't trust them as poets either. The true poet is anonymous, as to his habits, but these boys have to look, act, and apparently smell like poets"
    Flannery O'Connor on the beats.

  4. #1159
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post

    Who's quoting WP now?
    I freely admitted where my info came from in that post. I even quoted it, instead of just pretending the words were my own.

    Regardless, your posts are clearly showing that you've been making up your arguments as you go, making pretty bold claims about topics you're not that knowledgeable of; and even though you don't have all the facts yourself (or even a strong understanding of the terms you're using) you have no problem telling everyone else how wrong they are.

    This is pretty hypocritical behavior from a person who had no qualms about insulting the intelligence of certain folks here for seemingly not understanding things that you yourself clearly didn't understand at the time.

  5. #1160
    Elder Member Karl O'Neill's Avatar
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    I think everytime he tries to critique Final Crisis, he actually bolsters it by using inaccurate definitions.
    "You can't trust them as poets either. The true poet is anonymous, as to his habits, but these boys have to look, act, and apparently smell like poets"
    Flannery O'Connor on the beats.

  6. #1161
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl O'Neill View Post
    I think everytime he tries to critique Final Crisis, he actually bolsters it by using inaccurate definitions.
    I understand most Final Crisis criticisms. It's definitely a flawed story. But you're correct, he doesn't do detractors of the story any favors here.

  7. #1162
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Well over fifty years after comics were created in Britain...
    Scotland to be exact.

    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    A very important distinction which Morrison seems incapable of making. But then, it's easy to be a company man when you're one of the few the company doesn't treat like crap.
    Bingo. This is one thing Morrison completely skims over not to mention those acolytes who surround him but you see wee glimpses of it such as the one in Supergods where he dismisses Siegel and Schuster's claims on Superman. That I found genuinely quite shocking coming from someone who has benefited so much from owning his own creations and is in the middle of a fight over the rights to Zenith.

  8. #1163
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Passive-aggressive much? (joke) My position on hypertext has been consistent, but I'll admit that it was hard finding a satisfying definition. I don't remember where I got the idea that Morrison uses hypertext, or even what hypertext is, I only remember it's main focus was Seven Soldiers. But it stuck with me for a while, and the definition in my mind was something like "stories that are designed to be read in a non-linear way". However, as this discussion progressed I needed more than a casual mention, so I started looking for the real thing, and came across this... which isn't it at all, but provides a decent start, but then, aware of how Borges contributed to the general (printed and digital) concept of hypertext, I found the source. There's plenty of people observing that Morrison has used hypertext often and at least two printed ones claim that he has made homages to Borges. After a while I returned to WP and took that definition as the most satisfying (so far).



    I agree, I used cybertext interchangeably. Other than that the paragraph is pretty clear. If you want it in print, you can see that I'm not the only one seeing the annotations craze (last paragraphy of p. 224 first of p. 225).

    Please stop. Please.

  9. #1164
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    Please stop. Please.
    That's just wishful thinking...

  10. #1165
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    Scotland to be exact.
    Hold on, Scotland? What are you counting as the first British comic, here? I would have said either Funny Folks (1874) or Comic Cuts (1890) were the strongest contenders, and neither were published in Scotland.

    Bingo. This is one thing Morrison completely skims over not to mention those acolytes who surround him but you see wee glimpses of it such as the one in Supergods where he dismisses Siegel and Schuster's claims on Superman. That I found genuinely quite shocking coming from someone who has benefited so much from owning his own creations and is in the middle of a fight over the rights to Zenith.
    Somewhat hypocritical, I agree.

  11. #1166
    Born under a wandrin Star Tobias March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Morrison and Moore don't hate one another, and Moore doesn't hate superheroes.
    Exactly. It's just a waste of time.

  12. #1167
    Born under a wandrin Star Tobias March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    Bingo. This is one thing Morrison completely skims over not to mention those acolytes who surround him but you see wee glimpses of it such as the one in Supergods where he dismisses Siegel and Schuster's claims on Superman. That I found genuinely quite shocking coming from someone who has benefited so much from owning his own creations and is in the middle of a fight over the rights to Zenith.
    This passage in particular - In 1975, in the face of mounting bad publicity, Warner Bros [DC's parent company] finally awarded Siegel and Shuster each a $20,000 per year compensation along with an assured creator credit on every subsequent Superman comic, TV show, movie, or game. I'm sure it helped, but as an example of how far the business has come, today a prolific and popular comics writer could make the same amount in a week.

    I'm RICH yo!

  13. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias March View Post
    This passage in particular - In 1975, in the face of mounting bad publicity, Warner Bros [DC's parent company] finally awarded Siegel and Shuster each a $20,000 per year compensation along with an assured creator credit on every subsequent Superman comic, TV show, movie, or game. I'm sure it helped, but as an example of how far the business has come, today a prolific and popular comics writer could make the same amount in a week.

    I'm RICH yo!
    $20,000 was worth a lot more in 1975 than it is today (they sure as hell deserved a lot more, just saying that comparation isn't really fit).

  14. #1169

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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    Not to mention that of the three links he provided, two didn't work and one was just a mention of Borges' influence on Morrison's Doom Patrol.

    So how did we jump from that to Final Crisis being some kind of impossible to understand Borgesian Labyrinth? He really is just digging his hole deeper at this point.
    You should have told me they didn't work! I'll try to fin and fix them.

    Ok, external or internal it would depend on whether you consider Superman Beyond part of it or not (not to mention smaller non linear internal events like the bullet going backwards in the story, the weird Anthro-Kamandi-Metron thing, or a cute example, the little panel knot of #7 page 17). There are other tie-ins, which I guess, to much lesser degrees might make a hypertext structure, but that would be a very laid back interpretation, and that wouldn't set FC appart from other events that do exactly the same, right? Submit is somewhere in the middle, though, I don't believe it has a specific start node but by the time Tattooed man is hanging with the league you feel a bit like you missed a TV episode, it makes the submission a bit less sudden as well. Superman Beyond, however, is far from just a tie in, it's part of the story, you have to read it if you want to know what the hell is going on with Nix and Mandrakk.

    Forget all of the above, lets focus on the main hypertext structure. The "hyperlinks", nodes or whatever you call them, would be the hospital scene of #3 and the beginning of #6 (by then, to further but less relevant complication, superman had been in another adventure, just a regular tie in, though). From #1 starts the monitors storyline, that start is essential to understand who was releasing Mandrakk in Superman Beyond and why. Likewise you need SB to then understand the final enemy in #7 and how it relates to Rox (from #1). #7 is not the node, but if you want a clue of what's going on, you have to go back to SB.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
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  15. #1170
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    Morrison himself said he considered Superman Beyond part of the story and I might be wrong, but I think FC was collected with Superman Beyond included. So blame DC for not making Superman Beyond simply a part of the main mini.
    What's weird about Anthro-Kamandi-Metron?
    The bullet doesn't go backwards in the story, just back in time.
    That's it?

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