Alan Moore vs Grant Morrison

[tylenoljones]

A more simplistic way to see hypertext is "the thing that causes a lot of people to do that". To some degree, Morrison uses that in most of his stuff; however, I think 7 Soldiers is the best example, since it has the most clear non linear, branching reading order.

This is the best illustration yet that you don't have a strong understanding of what these terms you're using (specifically hypertext) really mean.

Just saying that some random story is non-linear and the reading order is branching doesn't on it's own suggest hypertext. The only reason people are giving you grief over any of this is because you haven't properly explained how these stories not only use hypertext, but how they, in your estimation, fail to use it correctly.

And telling someone they're just "denying the presence of labyrinths" or saying "how dare you call yourself a Morrison fan when you don't even recognize blah blah Borges hypertext" isn't an answer.

You have to first prove that Morrison intended Final Crisis and Seven Soldiers to be hypertexts (and weren't just partially inspired or made some small reference to the ideas of Borges) before you can start calling the stories out for any supposed failings in that regard.

And we're all still waiting...

[tylenoljones]

i mean that's simply not true, right? think about league, lots of the imagery in from hell, politics in watchmen......

His answer to that is usually something along the lines of (paraphrasing) "Moore's stories don't have specific citations of what he's referencing, but they aren't needed to understand the story being told."

His feeling is that Morrison is the only writer (his words, not mine), that requires you to seek out these references to understand his stories. He's also provided next to nothing in evidence to support this, beyond his own anecdotal account (which of course runs contrary to the reading experiences of quite a few others in this very thread, ultimately making his arguments invalid. Unless he can somehow prove his opinion trumps everyone else's. )

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

You mean apart from the links and references & reasoning and stuff. Would you prefer endless beating the dead horse of Hypertext & pretending you knew what you were saying?

And yes, it's a load of bloody bollocks.

Sorry, not when you reply to me.

And hey, it's a fairly common observation about Morrison. Call it what you want, but the main point is that he's not just sloppy, that he has an intention.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

His answer to that is usually something along the lines of (paraphrasing) "Moore's stories don't have specific citations of what he's referencing, but they aren't needed to understand the story being told."

His feeling is that Morrison is the only writer (his words, not mine), that requires you to seek out these references to understand his stories.

Pretty much. I don't know if he's the only one, though. At least in contrast with Moore.

Your previous post is a total fallacy, you're disqualifying me in order to disqualify my argument while you're not really providing one. It's not that complicated, in hypertext printed fiction stories unfold in a nonlinear, interactive narrative achieved through internal references; the complete opposite wold be a book in which the only effort the reader has to do to get the picture would be moving his eyes to read, and pass the pages in order as they finish. When it comes to Final Crisis, the clearest point would be it's intersection with Superman Beyond. Another example would be reconstructing the path of the bullet.

[tylenoljones]

When it comes to Final Crisis, the clearest point would be it's intersection with Superman Beyond.

A comic that ties in to another comic does not equal "hypertext". It's actually pretty common in this medium. Infinite Crisis had quite a few necessary tie ins too, and to a certain degree every Crisis event has ties to past Crisis events.

Another example would be reconstructing the path of the bullet.

Which is something that can be done quite simply by the reader with only the information provided in the text itself; no need for outside references, nor any "hyperlinks". That was your claim, after all; that these stories couldn't be understood without information that Morrison didn't include, and had to be actively searched out (on blogs, etc) independently by the readers. I've noticed that that's since changed to "internal references", hopefully because you actually did some reading on the subject and discovered you were wrong.

Being able to change up the reading order of the Seven Soldiers minis or finding key information for Final Crisis over in the Superman Beyond tie in is not only a poor example of hypertext; but it absolutely fails to explain your claim that the reader can't understand the stories without information beyond the text itself.

Or, if your claim now is that these particular works are hypertexts because of their "interactive narrative acheived through internal references", then where is the evidence of your claim that the appropriate information isn't there for the reader to properly understand these works?

[Karl O'Neill]

Fallacies, logic, hypertext, labrinths!

We might actually learn something here :-)

[Bruce Kent]

So, a tie-in and the difficulty of understanding a bullet that travelled through time is what you're going to use to support your POV? Really? The bullet thing was pretty clear in the comic, I think.

[tylenoljones]

Fallacies, logic, hypertext, labrinths!

We might actually learn something here :-)

Unfortunately, considering the examples given, anything you'll learn will likely be wrong :)

The claim being made was that Final Crisis is a failed attempt at Hypertext because it contained no hyperlinks. By definition, a text becomes hypertext by containing hyperlinks. So it's literally impossible (not to mention probably not the authors intent), for Final Crisis to be a hypertext, since according to Rafa it doesn't contain any such links. Yet he still claims that Final Crisis is a (failed) hypertext, despite it not meeting the definition of the word. At least in his estimation.

On the other hand, if Final Crisis does contain hyperlinks, then it can't really be a failed example of a hypertext.

See? His argument is all contradictory nonsense.

The confusion sets in when he can't provide evidence as to why he thinks Final Crisis was an example of Hypertext to begin with, nor has he explained how Final Crisis differs from any other comic (such as the work of Alan Moore), in either being a successful or failed hypertext.

And honestly, there are no answers coming. That much is clear by now. Still, the whole things is amusing, in it's own way.

[tylenoljones]

So out of curiosity I just googled hypertext in fiction, which led me here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext_fiction

Second paragraph on that page I found this statement:

"The term can also be used to describe traditionally-published books in which a nonlinear narrative and interactive narrative is achieved through internal references."

Which sounds an awful lot like this statement from Rafa earlier:

in hypertext printed fiction stories unfold in a nonlinear, interactive narrative achieved through internal references;

As if we needed any more proof he's just researching and making up his arguments as he goes along. Although that explains the contradictions in his arguments.

Now hopefully we can just drop all this. There's really no point in continuing the discussion if all of Rafa's statements are just being pulled from wikipedia; and with little thought on Rafa's part as to to how these terms actually apply to the stories being discussed beyond their perceived ability to make him feel smart by using big words.

[direction9]

Hypertext has more to do with disjointed narrative, with a story branching out or being non linear (although we're not really talking about flashbacks).

you just typed some things that are not at all described by this word "hypertext" at all. that's not what that is. that word isn't denoting anything you're attempting to express.

edit: apologies, this has already been covered into the ground

[tylenoljones]

you just typed some things that are not at all described by this word "hypertext" at all. that's not what that is. that word isn't denoting anything you're attempting to express.

edit: apologies, this has already been covered into the ground

Well, you covered it in more succinct fashion, at least. Maybe it'll actually get through to him this time.

[Froggy]

Moore's beardgame is so strong

but Morrison looks like Mr. Clean

decisions decisions

[tylenoljones]

Moore's beardgame is so strong

but Morrison looks like Mr. Clean

decisions decisions

I think the reason Morrison is so hairless is that he knows he could never grow an epic beard like Moore's, and if he tried he'd only come off like a pale imitation.

Better to be "No-Beard" than "Little-Beard". At least then Morrison can play it off like the beard doesn't even matter to him (but of course it does).

[Johnny P. Sartre]

I think the reason Morrison is so hairless is that he knows he could never grow an epic beard like Moore's, and if he tried he'd only come off like a pale imitation.

Better to be "No-Beard" than "Little-Beard". At least then Morrison can play it off like the beard doesn't even matter to him (but of course it does).

That and male pattern baldness

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

A comic that ties in to another comic does not equal "hypertext". It's actually pretty common in this medium. Infinite Crisis had quite a few necessary tie ins too, and to a certain degree every Crisis event has ties to past Crisis events.

Right now I'm not trying to "to explain your claim that the reader can't understand the stories" (I might do that later), just to establish that they are hypertext. Somehow you're putting a negative connotation of hypertext and expect whatever example to provide utter proof that the whole think is extremely convoluted an unreadable. Actually hypertext can, in some cases be very simple, the general reading order of 7 Soldiers is actually a pretty clean example, even elegant, now that you brought it up.

Ok, I put a couple of examples that make FC a hypertext story (one a tie-in node and the other relies on internal references) and my version of what hypertext is. I could just push further backing for those examples, but I think it would be more productive if instead I ask you to provide your version of hypertext and why you don't believe it applies to those two examples.

I should mention... one of the early references was Borges... what, you imagined he had tie-ins? Of course we are not exclusively talking about external references! This is why you should provide your version of hypertext too. Early on, the labyrinth analogy was specified as internal between the scenes.

As if we needed any more proof he's just researching and making up his arguments as he goes along. Although that explains the contradictions in his arguments.

And what, you'd just rely on whatever definition as long as it doesn't come from a place? Again, you are going straight at the person and not the argument.

And " for Final Crisis to be a hypertext, since according to Rafa it doesn't contain any such links". Please, remind me when did I said that.