Alan Moore vs Grant Morrison

[Desaad]

To be honest, I admit I made a bit of a snap judgement; I actually forgot about some of not so great Image stuff that Moore did in the the early 90s.

To be fair there, a lot of that rests on the artists. I was reading an interview in which someone in the industry - I forget who, Stephenson maybe? - was talking about how disappointed he was in the work Moore was putting out at the time, and then one of his friends was like "no, check this" and gave him a look at the script. It, apparently, revealed how much was simply left out and ignored by the artist.

[Darrell D.]

To be fair there, a lot of that rests on the artists. I was reading an interview in which someone in the industry - I forget who, Stephenson maybe? - was talking about how disappointed he was in the work Moore was putting out at the time, and then one of his friends was like "no, check this" and gave him a look at the script. It, apparently, revealed how much was simply left out and ignored by the artist.

Yeah, I remember reading one of the Violator scripts...Moore would write very detailed scripts, and you wonder if most of the artists at Image even understood them. He was also providing little mini breakdowns for each page, so they probably ignored the words and used the breakdowns.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Moore's early Image work was a major thing. It was hyped to high heaven at the time. Morrison had a similiar situation with his Judge Dredd, which was majorly hyped as part of "The Summer Offensive" when Morrison, Mark Millar, and John Smith took over the magazine. The difference between the appraisal of that work and Robinson's failure on JLA and C4J is that time has allowed us to place them in their proper place within the author's ouevre-- minor works that are not in any way indicative of their respective author's other works or abilities in general. They're the outliers, not representative by any means. Robinson's JLA work is an outlier, and anyone attempting a critical appraisal of his work should view it as such.

I have no real problem with you not liking Robinson's work. That's a personal judgment, and you're certainly welcome to it. I don't enjoy Robert Kirkman's work, for example, but when I cast a critical eye towards it, I can see that it's well-crafted stuff.

The more you know.

My issue with Robinson is that even when he's not that bad his dialogue and inner monologues make me want to beat the characters savagely and rip my own guts at the same time. I can't describe how cloying I find him.

Whatever happened to that Southside character from his JLA run? I remember that the name stroke me as random and dumb for a country that has very little in its North side. The soup line was really weird without context.

To be fair there, a lot of that rests on the artists. I was reading an interview in which someone in the industry - I forget who, Stephenson maybe? - was talking about how disappointed he was in the work Moore was putting out at the time, and then one of his friends was like "no, check this" and gave him a look at the script. It, apparently, revealed how much was simply left out and ignored by the artist.

Makes sense. I did noticed that reviewers spend a lot of space talking about the art only to throw a line or two about Moore. Those 90s artisits with the over-the-top muscles and boobs are hilarious. How did quality control get so bad?

[Jeff Brady]

How did quality control get so bad?

What quality control?

"Hey, this crap is selling like hot cakes! More, more more!"

[Darrell D.]

What quality control?

"Hey, this crap is selling like hot cakes! More, more more!"

"Let's have a silver embossed cover for Silver Sable #25! That sounds like a great idea!"
Living through the speculator market during that time was interesting and very sad.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

"Let's have a silver embossed cover for Silver Sable #25! That sounds like a great idea!"
Living through the speculator market during that time was interesting and very sad.

What quality control?

"Hey, this crap is selling like hot cakes! More, more more!"

hahahahaha. Those were the days for Rob Liefeld.

[jesse_custer]

I bet Moore has had his share of editorial meddling, but the outcome is always great, anyway.

Haha, good one. Anyone who calls Voodoo and Spawn/WildC.A.T.S. great is a comedian.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Haha, good one. Anyone who calls Voodoo and Spawn/WildC.A.T.S. great is a comedian.

We already went through the image thing.

Was it at least better than the average Image script?

[Bruce Kent]

We already went through the image thing.

Was it at least better than the average Image script?

So, you will take basically any excuse that allows you to say Moore did no bad work?
I mean, Darell D. actually saw one script. You saw absolutely nothing.
Also, it is a little funny that you dismissed the changes made to Robison's script for LOEG and embrace so easily the argument that everything bad Moore ever did was the artist's fault.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

So, you will take basically any excuse that allows you to say Moore did no bad work?
I mean, Darell D. actually saw one script. You saw absolutely nothing.

My question doesn't imply any of that.

On the LoEG thing you kinda got me.

[king mob]

How do you even measure that? I guess that Morrison's non-DCU series must be condensed conceptual syrup, because he created a lot of stuff for DC and Marvel, but he's nowhere near Kirby there, mainly because, like most of the contemporary writers, he just remixes ideas there.

He freely admits this. He's called himself 'like a shoplifter walking to the rows of a supermarket nicking ideas like tins of beans' but in terms of ideas, and the concept of keeping Kirby's spirit on he's the one who gets it as opposed to having one idea and milking it to the nth degree.

No, you're frankly talking without support of any sort. Alan Moore criticizes misogyny, but it's quite obvious that he's not. Evey, Mina, Toy Box, Glory, Promethea are examples of how he puts different complex women as heroes and not just eye candy for readers. In fact, Moore rarely uses eyecandy at all.

I've pointed out my reasoning and because a writer has had good form in the past, that doesn't preclude them from making almighty fuck ups . Saying 'but he's done all this before' is missing the point and dodging it.

[king mob]

What the hell did you have for breakfast?

Anyway, I don't think that's a narrow thing. Hell, even I can be called one. However, I find it contradictory to be blindly in love with everything he has done while blatantly denying influences and homages that have been admittedly done by himself (Borges and labyrinths). It's like loving, say, Muse and denying its Queen influences. Then again, why not, maybe one can be a fan and an absolute idiot at the same time.

So you were talking bollocks.

[king mob]

Wait, that's not possible. Kirby was supposed to draw Spider-Man. the very reason Lee decided to go with Ditko was because Kirby's Spider-Man didn't look like a "weird geek", that's why he went with Steve Ditko, who he thought at first "couldn't draw superheroes". If Ditko wasn't affiliated to the project at first, then that means Lee had at least some aspect of the concept down before.
Ditko went with the "weird geek" characterisation and turned him into an antisocial Randian like person similar to how he was during his college days. Which caused problems with Marvel's editor who wanted a more consensual character. Lee.....well, decided to side with the boss. Hence Ditko leaving and Lee going with a more "classic" artist and co scenarist.
That's the story I've heard. You're sure of yours?

That's if you buy the Stan Lee version of history. The version of Spidey Kirby knocked out looked something like The Fly if I remember right, and everyone hated it, even Kirby who didn't really like the character, and as for Peter Parker, Lee's idea was to make him an ordinary kid but it was Ditko that made him look like a strange geeky kid with serious social problems.

And yes, as the run continues you see more and more Ditko creeping in but he wasn't getting the credit for the work he was doing.

[Auguste Dupin]

That's if you buy the Stan Lee version of history. The version of Spidey Kirby knocked out looked something like The Fly if I remember right, and everyone hated it, even Kirby who didn't really like the character, and as for Peter Parker, Lee's idea was to make him an ordinary kid but it was Ditko that made him look like a strange geeky kid with serious social problems.

And yes, as the run continues you see more and more Ditko creeping in but he wasn't getting the credit for the work he was doing.

Yes, I know. I read them. After a while, he is credited as co scenarist.
You have a link for all this?

[king mob]

By the way, he's responsible for ruining the LOEG film.

No he's not. There's a lot of people responsible for that.