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  1. #1036

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell D. View Post
    Golden Age and Starman was pretty good, but it still doesn't stand up to the worst of Moore.
    Moore is just in another league.
    Yes, Moore is in another league, but he's still capable of bad work. Bad work that doesn't stand up to The Golden Age and Starman. But, to each his own.
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  2. #1037
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    Quote Originally Posted by FanboyStranger View Post
    You do realize that you're throwing Violator vs Badrock up against Robinson's best, right? Yes, you're arguing that Violator vs Badrock is better than The Golden Age, Starman, LotDK: Blades, Four Devils, One Hell, etc.
    He clearly doesn't realize or probably even read all of those. That whole statement just smacks of asinine snobbery.

  3. #1038
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FanboyStranger View Post
    I'd say it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of exceptional work he's done. Now, if that JLA run had been the last thing he had done, I'd say that his detractors had a point, but he came back very strongly with the excellent The Shade mini and the very solid Earth 2.

    Also, "Pow Rodrix" is an awesome name.

    I liked Robinsons JLA run more than Metzger's and I thought it was more ambitious and original than Kellys.

  4. #1039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell D. View Post
    Gaiman is more recognizable for Sandman and his work than Miller is for Batman, especially outside of the comics culture.
    Miller's Batman work is still a part of the insular super-hero genre, while Gaiman's work was praised outside the community.
    This is the significant thing, for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Libaax View Post
    Thats my point exactly. Gaiman is smaller than Miller in american comics and Miller is not as known as Gaiman in book world. Sandman is known outside comics culture only because its Gaiman who wrote it. They know it because they have read his novels. I wasnt talking about outside the community, Gaiman work is outside the community. He is a novelist mostly. Sandman is hailed and loved by smaller group of comic fans. He is not Alan Moore level in other genres of comics. I would rank Moore,Miller before him seeing as how their comics is respected decades later today.
    You seem to be conflating "comics culture" with 'superhero fans', here. That's a mistake, as not all comics fans are superhero fans. And in any case, I think one has to look beyond just the comics community in a discussion like this. As Darrell said, Gaiman's work is far more recognized by the non comics reading world.

  5. #1040
    Elder Member Libaax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    This is the significant thing, for me.

    You seem to be conflating "comics culture" with 'superhero fans', here. That's a mistake, as not all comics fans are superhero fans. And in any case, I think one has to look beyond just the comics community in a discussion like this. As Darrell said, Gaiman's work is far more recognized by the non comics reading world.
    Whats with ghetto comics thing going on here? I'm talking Gaiman and Miller comics writers. I'm not talking about novels here. Frank Miller is comics legend for Superhero like Moore is and Stan Lee, Kirby. I don't respect Superhero and it's crap often but I respect the most acclaimed in the genre like the best comics in other genres.

    I'm talking about the rep Miller has. I was recommended his classic works in the medium as newbie . Sandman isn't that special to dismiss Frank Miller.
    Last edited by Libaax; 12-07-2012 at 03:16 AM.
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  6. #1041
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FanboyStranger View Post
    You do realize that you're throwing Violator vs Badrock up against Robinson's best, right? Yes, you're arguing that Violator vs Badrock is better than The Golden Age, Starman, LotDK: Blades, Four Devils, One Hell, etc.
    Yeah, upon further reflection, Robinson has produced some good work.
    I still agree that Johns and Winick are merely servicable super-hero writers...and yes, I know Winick wrote Pedro and me, but I consider that book to be tripe.

  7. #1042
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Wrong poster...ghah

  8. #1043

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    Quote Originally Posted by Libaax View Post
    I'm talking about the rep Miller has. I was recommended his classic works in the medium as newbie . Sandman isn't that special to dismiss Frank Miller.
    Maybe we should think in terms of what each writer does best. Moore, Gaiman and specially Morrison have each given Batman a shot, yet Miller's Batman comes on top.

    Morrison had all the time to top it and wasn't able to produce something as seminal. Moore and Gaiman have not worked enough with Batman, yet keep in mind that Miller aced the character in his first 4 issues. I think that even now, if asked to create the ultimate Batman story, Moore stands a chance to top DKR and YO. However, I suspect that's not the case with Gaiman. Gaiman is great at tales, but even though it's always great to see Batman or Superman star in those tales, detective and action might not be his strengths. For, instance the Riddler story he did is great, but I'd have wanted to see him in real action, like Joker in Killing Joke or Clayface III in Mortal Clay; then we have Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader, awesome read, a great retrospective and it's definitively a brilliant story featuring Batman, but as a "Batman story" doesn't really hit the spot.

    In short, now that not even Miller can top 80s Miller's Batman, I think only Moore would have a shot, even though there's no way in hell that could happen. So 80s Miller is the king of Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanboyStranger View Post
    You do realize that you're throwing Violator vs Badrock up against Robinson's best, right? Yes, you're arguing that Violator vs Badrock is better than The Golden Age, Starman, LotDK: Blades, Four Devils, One Hell, etc.
    Ok, ok, reviews seem to indicate that you're right. However, Blades? Are you trying to make a case for Robinson or against him?
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  9. #1044

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    FS mentioned it along with Robinson's other great work, doubt that he's going for the latter.
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  10. #1045
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    To be honest, I admit I made a bit of a snap judgement; I actually forgot about some of not so great Image stuff that Moore did in the the early 90s.

  11. #1046
    Say WHAT?!?!?!? FanboyStranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell D. View Post
    To be honest, I admit I made a bit of a snap judgement; I actually forgot about some of not so great Image stuff that Moore did in the the early 90s.
    The point is that every writer has some poor work. Moore has that early Image work (anything with Violator, really), his backups in American Flagg!, etc. Morrison has a terrible Judge Dredd run. I don't think people should judge James Robinson's work on C4J or JLA simply because they're a bit more public and recent (and superhero-y), just as we wouldn't judge Moore on Violator/Badrock.

  12. #1047
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FanboyStranger View Post
    The point is that every writer has some poor work. Moore has that early Image work (anything with Violator, really), his backups in American Flagg!, etc. Morrison has a terrible Judge Dredd run. I don't think people should judge James Robinson's work on C4J or JLA simply because they're a bit more public and recent (and superhero-y), just as we wouldn't judge Moore on Violator/Badrock.
    Very true, and I forgot about the American Flagg! backups as well....

  13. #1048

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    Quote Originally Posted by FanboyStranger View Post
    The point is that every writer has some poor work. Moore has that early Image work (anything with Violator, really), his backups in American Flagg!, etc. Morrison has a terrible Judge Dredd run. I don't think people should judge James Robinson's work on C4J or JLA simply because they're a bit more public and recent (and superhero-y), just as we wouldn't judge Moore on Violator/Badrock.
    Well, it'd seem that Robinson pick high profile gigs to screw up while Moore seems to do the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Batson View Post
    FS mentioned it along with Robinson's other great work, doubt that he's going for the latter.
    I know, I know. Just not my cup of tea. Hated it.
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  14. #1049
    Say WHAT?!?!?!? FanboyStranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Well, it'd seem that Robinson pick high profile gigs to screw up while Moore seems to do the opposite.
    Moore's early Image work was a major thing. It was hyped to high heaven at the time. Morrison had a similiar situation with his Judge Dredd, which was majorly hyped as part of "The Summer Offensive" when Morrison, Mark Millar, and John Smith took over the magazine. The difference between the appraisal of that work and Robinson's failure on JLA and C4J is that time has allowed us to place them in their proper place within the author's ouevre-- minor works that are not in any way indicative of their respective author's other works or abilities in general. They're the outliers, not representative by any means. Robinson's JLA work is an outlier, and anyone attempting a critical appraisal of his work should view it as such.

    I have no real problem with you not liking Robinson's work. That's a personal judgment, and you're certainly welcome to it. I don't enjoy Robert Kirkman's work, for example, but when I cast a critical eye towards it, I can see that it's well-crafted stuff.

  15. #1050
    Were You There? Michael P's Avatar
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    I liked Robinson's JLA. Not Cry For Justice, but the main book. It was fun.
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