Alan Moore vs Grant Morrison

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Oh behave.

It's only logical. Moore is well known as a feminist.

[king mob]

Kirby, Ditko and many others did their best work with Stan.

Kirby and Ditko did some of their best work at Marvel. They both went on to create some wonderful comics. Stan Lee went on to write Ravage 2099.

Yeah, Stan's a company man and it's a shame he's probably been told by lawyers to keep his mouth shut about who deserves credit, but he's still very deserving of his legendary status.

Lee's still the publishers nephew. It's a role he's played most of his life.

[king mob]

you realize that you sound more like youtube's Annoying Orange than a true Morrison fan, right?

What the buggery fuck is a 'true Morrison fan?''

[king mob]

Well, I think he was a salesman who one day had this great idea "what if superheros where written like real people with real problems"

The FF were the Challengers of the Unknown. Look at the first issue, it's the Challengers for the last half of the book and it reads like a Simon/Kirby book from the 40's/50's. Spider Man being a weird geeky kid was Ditko's idea, and we can see from Ditko's later work just how much Ditko is in those Spidey stories while we can see from the Romita era where Lee wanted Spidey to go.

And even when he let him and Ditko go a bit more "wild" , like in Thor or Dr Strange, you notice this element is more absent than in Spider-Man.

Marvel readily admit that Dr Strange was Ditko's idea from start to finish and Thor is just pure Kirby with Lee's dialogue slapped on it.


Of course when you're a kid you buy the Bullpen idea then you grow up and realise what a sham it all was.

[king mob]

It's only logical. Moore is well known as a feminist.

No, you're frankly talking bollocks.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

There's a difference between high concept and an ideas person. Morrison is about the only creator in mainstream comics who comes close to having the multitude of ideas Kirby had, which doesn't make some of the others bad writers, just that they're not up there with what Kirby did and what Morrison has tried to do.

How do you even measure that? I guess that Morrison's non-DCU series must be condensed conceptual syrup, because he created a lot of stuff for DC and Marvel, but he's nowhere near Kirby there, mainly because, like most of the contemporary writers, he just remixes ideas there. While I think he is one of the most prolific contemporary writers in terms of ideas, I'm not sure he beats Moore. Or how about Eastman and Laird? TMNT is a non-stop trip of weirdness, non of it based on established characters. Neil comic-book bibliography is shorter than Morrison's, but talking exclusively about DC, I wouldn't be surprised if his featured more original characters than Morrison's, all of them with Kirby-like creativity.

No, you're frankly talking bollocks.

No, you're frankly talking without support of any sort. Alan Moore criticizes misogyny, but it's quite obvious that he's not. Evey, Mina, Toy Box, Glory, Promethea are examples of how he puts different complex women as heroes and not just eye candy for readers. In fact, Moore rarely uses eyecandy at all.

[tony ingram]

Kirby and Ditko did some of their best work at Marvel. They both went on to create some wonderful comics. Stan Lee went on to write Ravage 2099.

And She-Hulk! Don't forget She-Hulk!

And Stripperella...

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

What the buggery fuck is a 'true Morrison fan?''

What the hell did you have for breakfast?

Anyway, I don't think that's a narrow thing. Hell, even I can be called one. However, I find it contradictory to be blindly in love with everything he has done while blatantly denying influences and homages that have been admittedly done by himself (Borges and labyrinths). It's like loving, say, Muse and denying its Queen influences. Then again, why not, maybe one can be a fan and an absolute idiot at the same time.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

And She-Hulk! Don't forget She-Hulk!

And Stripperella...

That's a great point... Stan didn't create much after Kirby and Ditko...

[Auguste Dupin]

The FF were the Challengers of the Unknown. Look at the first issue, it's the Challengers for the last half of the book and it reads like a Simon/Kirby book from the 40's/50's. Spider Man being a weird geeky kid was Ditko's idea, and we can see from Ditko's later work just how much Ditko is in those Spidey stories while we can see from the Romita era where Lee wanted Spidey to go.

Wait, that's not possible. Kirby was supposed to draw Spider-Man. the very reason Lee decided to go with Ditko was because Kirby's Spider-Man didn't look like a "weird geek", that's why he went with Steve Ditko, who he thought at first "couldn't draw superheroes". If Ditko wasn't affiliated to the project at first, then that means Lee had at least some aspect of the concept down before.
Ditko went with the "weird geek" characterisation and turned him into an antisocial Randian like person similar to how he was during his college days. Which caused problems with Marvel's editor who wanted a more consensual character. Lee.....well, decided to side with the boss. Hence Ditko leaving and Lee going with a more "classic" artist and co scenarist.
That's the story I've heard. You're sure of yours?

[Darrell D.]

The FF were the Challengers of the Unknown. Look at the first issue, it's the Challengers for the last half of the book and it reads like a Simon/Kirby book from the 40's/50's. Spider Man being a weird geeky kid was Ditko's idea, and we can see from Ditko's later work just how much Ditko is in those Spidey stories while we can see from the Romita era where Lee wanted Spidey to go.

I call the Romita era, 'Spider-man: The Archie Andrews years.' The quality from Ditko to Romita was a HUUUUGE drop 0ff, art and storywise.

Marvel readily admit that Dr Strange was Ditko's idea from start to finish and Thor is just pure Kirby with Lee's dialogue slapped on it.

Yeah, Kirby had a great love of mythology, and despite the stupid idea Lee had to have the characters talk like LARP morons, Kirby's Thor still holds up as some of his best work.

[Darrell D.]

Wait, that's not possible. Kirby was supposed to draw Spider-Man. the very reason Lee decided to go with Ditko was because Kirby's Spider-Man didn't look like a "weird geek", that's why he went with Steve Ditko, who he thought at first "couldn't draw superheroes". If Ditko wasn't affiliated to the project at first, then that means Lee had at least some aspect of the concept down before.
Ditko went with the "weird geek" characterisation and turned him into an antisocial Randian like person similar to how he was during his college days. Which caused problems with Marvel's editor who wanted a more consensual character. Lee.....well, decided to side with the boss. Hence Ditko leaving and Lee going with a more "classic" artist and co scenarist.
That's the story I've heard. You're sure of yours?

The story of Ditko leaving has many different variations.
The one I believe the most, is that he left because he never received the royalties he was promised from Martin Goodman for all of the merchandising.
Kirby never got his royalties either, but he stayed because he had a family to support.
The 'Spider-man' story has a lot of different variations, as well. Such as Kirby bringing the concept to Stan, even down to the 'boy living with his aunt and uncle'.

[Auguste Dupin]

The story of Ditko leaving has many different variations.
The one I believe the most, is that he left because he never received the royalties he was promised from Martin Goodman for all of the merchandising.
Kirby never got his royalties either, but he stayed because he had a family to support.

Well, i suppose he could have multiple reasons for leaving.
Another I heard was a feud about the Green Goblin's secret identity. Lee wanted him to be, well , Osborn, Ditko wanted him to be a nobody, because of his belief that crime didn't follow any determinism.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

No, you're frankly talking without support of any sort. Alan Moore criticizes misogyny, but it's quite obvious that he's not. Evey, Mina, Toy Box, Glory, Promethea are examples of how he puts different complex women as heroes and not just eye candy for readers. In fact, Moore rarely uses eyecandy at all.

Let's be frank here; all that still doesn't magically make Neonomicon not ghastly shit.

[direction9]

What the hell did you have for breakfast?

Anyway, I don't think that's a narrow thing. Hell, even I can be called one. However, I find it contradictory to be blindly in love with everything he has done while blatantly denying influences and homages that have been admittedly done by himself (Borges and labyrinths). It's like loving, say, Muse and denying its Queen influences. Then again, why not, maybe one can be a fan and an absolute idiot at the same time.

that would be indeed contradictory if anyone was doing that