Alan Moore vs Grant Morrison

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

"Enemy of the industry"? No. Enemy of elements within that industry, possibly. But not without good reason.

Agreed. I meant enemy of "the man" within the industry.

[Darrell D.]

Which is exactly where I was going. How can Stan be abusing Kirby and Ditko when he started the credit thing?

I dunno, taking creator credit for other people's work is a bit of an abuse, if you ask me. Jack plotted almost 95% of those stories they worked on; he even put dialog suggestions in the margins of the original work for Stan to use. Stan really believes he created Spider-man, and than he was 'gifting' Ditko a co-creator credit.
I have nothing against Lee, but he doesn't hold a candle to Kirby or Ditko; he was a hack most of the time.

[Bruce Kent]

While he stands his ground (and I mean the Spawn thing), he doesn't become an enemy of the industry like Moore, but he's also no whore like Morrison.

What a complete overreaction!

[Bruce Kent]

Which is exactly where I was going. How can Stan be abusing Kirby and Ditko when he started the credit thing?

[Darrell D.]

Yeah, nice clip.
Stan is very uncomfortable giving credit where credit is due, especially if it interferes with the company line of 'Stan created everything! Here, Stan, have another big ass check!'

[Auguste Dupin]

Yeah, nice clip.
Stan is very uncomfortable giving credit where credit is due, especially if it interferes with the company line of 'Stan created everything! Here, Stan, have another big ass check!'

Stan is a complicated guy.
On the one hand, he just seems to refuse to say "Steve is the co creator", on the other hand, he admits without much of a problem Ditko did most of the work and that he was great at it.
Of course, the "great at it" part could just be him being a good PR, but he does say that, and even more so in the end, the stories were more Ditko stories than him.
Maybe he really does think he "created" Spider-Man. I mean, old guys tend to believe in an idealized version of their life. Who hasn't heard his grandpa telling him how he was an heroic soldier fighting nazis only to realize years later the guy only joined the last two months?

[Darrell D.]

Stan is a complicated guy.
On the one hand, he just seems to refuse to say "Steve is the co creator", on the other hand, he admits without much of a problem Ditko did most of the work and that he was great at it.
Of course, the "great at it" part could just be him being a good PR, but he does say that, and even more so in the end, the stories were more Ditko stories than him.
Maybe he really does think he "created" Spider-Man. I mean, old guys tend to believe in an idealized version of their life. Who hasn't heard his grandpa telling him how he was an heroic soldier fighting nazis only to realize years later the guy only joined the last two months?

Doubtful.
Stan is a company man, through and through. Even though Kirby designed and created pretty much the entire Marvel character pool at that time, Stan was considered 'The creator'....a good way to screw Kirby and Ditko out of royalties, to be sure.
Stan's not complicated. He's a huckster.

[Bruce Kent]

Maybe he really does think he "created" Spider-Man.

Oh, sure, I absolutely think that he thinks he created Spider-Man. But he's wrong.
And I've said this before, as wrong as he is, you can't compare him in anyway to Bob Kane.

[Auguste Dupin]

Doubtful.
Stan is a company man, through and through. Even though Kirby designed and created pretty much the entire Marvel character pool at that time, Stan was considered 'The creator'....a good way to screw Kirby and Ditko out of royalties, to be sure.
Stan's not complicated. He's a huckster.

Well, the way I heard the story, Steve Ditko isn't the co creator in the sense meant by Stan Lee here, because the first artist to be attached to Spider-man was Jack Kirby. But Lee (apparently) didn't like what Kirby came up with (mostly because he wanted Spider-Man to be a nerd, while Kirby drawned him muscular), so he asked Ditko to do it. So, in a sense, Ditko has nothing to do with the idea of Spider-Man (of course, the possibility that Lee just took a Kirby project of a spider themed hero and used his own idea of a "teen loser" on it contests Lee's claim of being the sole creator of the concept). What makes him the co-creator is the fact that he came up with at least half of the actual stories we read and did most of the work. Which is what Lee is saying. He just doesn't want to say "Ditko is the co-creator" without putting some kind of twist on it to attenuate the claim. Which is what makes it weird, because it results in him admitting Ditko is the one worthy of praise.
So, yeah, I'm going to stick on complicated, thank you very much.

[Auguste Dupin]

Oh, sure, I absolutely think that he thinks he created Spider-Man. But he's wrong.
And I've said this before, as wrong as he is, you can't compare him in anyway to Bob Kane.

Well, at least, Stan Lee does admit Ditko did most of the work.
Bob Kane was like : "Bill Finger? Never heard of him".

[Karl O'Neill]

I read an essay/introduction to a new gods/forever people mini series years ago, can't remember who wrote it but they compared Stan and Jack to Lennon and Mccartney.

[Bruce Kent]

Well, at least, Stan Lee does admit Ditko did most of the work.
Bob Kane was like : "Bill Finger? Never heard of him".

Yeah, plus Kane knew he had not created Batman and still claimed so. His drunk confession when he was already old prove that.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Well, the way I heard the story, Steve Ditko isn't the co creator in the sense meant by Stan Lee here, because the first artist to be attached to Spider-man was Jack Kirby. But Lee (apparently) didn't like what Kirby came up with (mostly because he wanted Spider-Man to be a nerd, while Kirby drawned him muscular), so he asked Ditko to do it. So, in a sense, Ditko has nothing to do with the idea of Spider-Man (of course, the possibility that Lee just took a Kirby project of a spider themed hero and used his own idea of a "teen loser" on it contests Lee's claim of being the sole creator of the concept). What makes him the co-creator is the fact that he came up with at least half of the actual stories we read and did most of the work. Which is what Lee is saying. He just doesn't want to say "Ditko is the co-creator" without putting some kind of twist on it to attenuate the claim. Which is what makes it weird, because it results in him admitting Ditko is the one worthy of praise.
So, yeah, I'm going to stick on complicated, thank you very much.

From the video, I agree on this. And I comprehend Stan. He is creator of the concept, Ditko defined him, so they are co-creators in that sense. However, Ditko would have drawn whatever else Lee could have thought.

[Darrell D.]

From the video, I agree on this. And I comprehend Stan. He is creator of the concept, Ditko defined him, so they are co-creators in that sense. However, Ditko would have drawn whatever else Lee could have thought.

I could almost buy that, if it wasn't for the company pushing the idea that Stan created EVERYTHING...they kept that going up until the 80s.
It's hard to tell what Stan lent to any of the character creations; the characters and stories that Kirby did after Marvel show he was the creative part of that team.

[Auguste Dupin]

I could almost buy that, if it wasn't for the company pushing the idea that Stan created EVERYTHING...they kept that going up until the 80s.
It's hard to tell what Stan lent to any of the character creations; the characters and stories that Kirby did after Marvel show he was the creative part of that team.

Well, it does depends what you mean by "creating". I do believe Lee is the one who came up with the whole "angsty teenager gets powers while still being a loser" (and that's a pretty big thing, if you think about it). Now, I'm pretty much willing to believe Kirby is the one who came with the whole Spider thing (especially since I heard he actually did create a spider super hero before), which means that Lee only came up with half the concept. We have no idea who came up with most of the characters, although I'd tend to believe it must be Ditko (although they probably both contributed to this). And of course, having a good concept doesn't mean you're the one who make it work.
In short, who deserves credits for ther Spider-Man concept......well it's a mess.