Alan Moore vs Grant Morrison

[Desaad]

Final Crisis has many ideas, some of them very intriguing, but this is what I ultimately took from the book: "If you're not familiar with the DC Universe, this book's not for you (to love or to hate)."

It's hard for me to comment on that, since I am so very familiar with the DCU, but I've heard much to the contrary.

I'd venture to say it's more an issue "If you're not okay with not knowing every detail, or having every detail fed to you directly, this book is not for you".

There is only one point in the narrative that some context would be helpful (or even necessary), and it's not about understanding the DCU as much as it is understanding the commentary that Morrison is making about DC politics. But not having that context, you can just ignore it as something weird that sailed over your head and not worry about it to much, if you have that kind of capacity.

The rest of it, though...the book is a challenge, in the way that Morrison's books often challenge the reader. He forces you to work, to use your own imagination, to generate your own connective tissue, to interpret as you see fit. I happen to think it's Morrison's greatest strength as a writer, something that virtually all the other greats of the industry are missing, but I can see why it's unappealing. Even I, at times, just want to read something completely light. There is a real sense of work that comes with fully reading and appreciating the dimensions of Morrison's work, but also the sense of satisfaction that comes from a good day's work.

[king mob]

So, is Neonomicon set in the continuity of other Moore stories or a shared universe? How can I find out more about it.

You're using the internet so I'm sure that will help.

I think Neonomion is clever, even in the way it plays with sexuality.

Utterly disagree. Yes, in terms of structure, panel layout and design the book is of Moore's typical standard, but it's also a nasty, ugly piece of misogynist nonsense and yes, I know what Moore was trying to do but it failed.

[jesse_custer]

It's hard for me to comment on that, since I am so very familiar with the DCU, but I've heard much to the contrary.

I'd venture to say it's more an issue "If you're not okay with not knowing every detail, or having every detail fed to you directly, this book is not for you".

There is only one point in the narrative that some context would be helpful (or even necessary), and it's not about understanding the DCU as much as it is understanding the commentary that Morrison is making about DC politics. But not having that context, you can just ignore it as something weird that sailed over your head and not worry about it to much, if you have that kind of capacity.

The rest of it, though...the book is a challenge, in the way that Morrison's books often challenge the reader. He forces you to work, to use your own imagination, to generate your own connective tissue, to interpret as you see fit. I happen to think it's Morrison's greatest strength as a writer, something that virtually all the other greats of the industry are missing, but I can see why it's unappealing. Even I, at times, just want to read something completely light. There is a real sense of work that comes with fully reading and appreciating the dimensions of Morrison's work, but also the sense of satisfaction that comes from a good day's work.

Sure, but Morrison can do much better. We3 is a perfect example.

[Desaad]

Sure, but Morrison can do much better. We3 is a perfect example.

Now I find this interesting.

We3 is visually inventive and incredibly emotionally engaging, but thematically, subtextually and intellectually an incredibly uncomplicated piece of work.

I'd put it in the category of "Joe" and "Happy", in terms of being obviously put together with an eye toward adaptation (that doesn't mean it's not incredibly well done, mind you).

Something like Seaguy, on the other hand, strikes me as a much more complicated piece of work, and I'm finding it difficult to believe I forgot about it somehow in my above discussion.

[king mob]

I think Big Numbers would have been the game changer for Anglo-phonic comics. An important work that really explored the potential of the medium to its fullest. When Billy the Sink (and I give him that name with all due respect) walked off, comics died a little bit.

There were other reasons why Big Numbers died and Mad Love imploded, but it's not my place to tell those stories because they're not online and they involve real lives.

Just following the thread, I find it ridiculous that someone like KingMob, who was there when it all happened, gets called out. I've had my disagreements with King over the years over the interpretation of certain stories, but he's always been dead on as far as the various British Invasions. To call him out as a "fanboy" is absolutely ridiculous (says the "Fanboy Stranger"). (Same with Tony Ingram, who has called me out before, but has at least walked the walk. And has done some great work which everyone should check out.)

(Obviously, not directed towards you, Johnny. You and me are on the same page as far as comics.)

I thank you. I really should get round to doing that history of British comics I keep promising to do. There really is a lot of unsung heroes out there who deserve to get credit.

[king mob]

(And his handle should pretty much explain that his sympathies are with both creators.)

You'd think more people would spot that wouldn't you?

[king mob]

they say his new x-men was great but x-men fans most hate it

His New X Men run was great and genuinely tried to do new things with some very tired and worn out ideas, concepts and characters, but here's the thing, it brought new readers to a title and a company that was dying because all it'd done for the previous decade was pander to the decreasing circle of fans who just wanted more of the bloody same thanks. Then Marvel cocked everything up by going back to the same tired status quo and it bled those readers who were excited by Morrison's work because a small core of fans wanted 'their' comic back.

[king mob]

God, that run (x-force/x-statix) blew my mind away when it was coming out. We NEED more superhero comics like that right now.

Not going to happen from Marvel or DC, not to mention Pete Milligan seems to just be cashing the cheques rather than putting any real effort into his superhero work.

[jesse_custer]

Now I find this interesting.

We3 is visually inventive and incredibly emotionally engaging, but thematically, subtextually and intellectually an incredibly uncomplicated piece of work.

We3 is richer than Final Crisis in terms of theme, subtext, and intellectualism. Big ideas aren't big enough if you don't care as much about them. Morrison connects the heart, mind, and spirit in We3, making it far more articulate and, paradoxically, far less complicated than Final Crisis.

If you take away Morrison's commentary on DC politics, Final Crisis becomes even less relevant to one's interests.

[Desaad]

We3 is richer than Final Crisis in terms of theme, subtext, and intellectualism.

In what way?

Big ideas aren't big enough if you don't care as much about them.

Their depth and complexity exists independently of an individual's preference or engagement. I suspect you don't particularly care about Hegelian dialectics, but the complexity of that philosophy is evident all the same.

Now if you want to argue that We3 is a more emotionally engaging piece of work, and therefore a more affecting piece of work, you have every right to - and I might even agree, though I can't be sure of it - but that's a different claim entirely.

Morrison connects the heart, mind, and spirit in We3, making it far more articulate and, paradoxically, far less complicated than Final Crisis.

Emotionally articulate? Perhaps. But what exactly is he articulating, what worldview or innovation is he putting forth beyond 'war is horrible, the military industrial complex is soulless'?

If you take away Morrison's commentary on DC politics, Final Crisis becomes even less relevant to one's interests.

That simply isn't true. Comicbook realpolitik is certainly one level or layer of the work, but Final Crisis is making a comment on the nature of creation and creativity, it's making a comment on the nature of evil and all the various forms it takes, it's referencing gnosticism and neoplatonism, it's calling back to Borges, it's invoking Carl Jung, and yeah it's doing some pretty great character work I think throughout.

[Libaax]

Didn't affect me in a positive way...

Rafa-Rivas appears to believe that the only criteria for judging how well known anything is, is how well known it is in North America. It's an attitude I've come across before on these boards. Still rather odd though, given how much of the world's population is not, in fact, located in North America.

Whats is funny coincidence is just today i met the 9 year old daughter of the man i work for as nurse assistant (helping him around the house,taking him out kind of work) and she has a huge Tintin poster over her bed. I was thinking me 30 year old and her 9 year old was comparing favorite Tintin stories was pretty good for 80 year olds series. Many different generations grow up with Tintin. 300+ million Americans in North,Mexico isnt the whole world. Some American comics fans think being the majority in US comics board is the same in the actual world....

[king mob]

I think that could maybe be said of his creator owned work, which feels very much to me like an attempt to break into mainstream cinema -- both Happy and Joe the Barbarian are pretty perfect high concept pitches for a movie of some sort --

Happy screams film pitch as well as telling Mark Millar to fucking do one. Pity it's not especially very good.

Anyhow, yes, it's clear Morrison wants to break into film badly with this and the Dinosaurs V Aliens thing and the other ideas he's pushing onto Hollywood but the fact nothing's yet been done does seem to piss him off.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

His New X Men run was great and genuinely tried to do new things with some very tired and worn out ideas, concepts and characters, but here's the thing, it brought new readers to a title and a company that was dying because all it'd done for the previous decade was pander to the decreasing circle of fans who just wanted more of the bloody same thanks. Then Marvel cocked everything up by going back to the same tired status quo and it bled those readers who were excited by Morrison's work because a small core of fans wanted 'their' comic back.

Sounds excellent. I'm now convinced to put the New X-Men Omnibus on my "to buy list."

[Desaad]

Happy screams film pitch as well as telling Mark Millar to fucking do one. Pity it's not especially very good.

I'm quite enjoying it, myself, for what it is. I appreciate that despite the obvious drive to simplify and tailor to the mainstream, the book still surprises, oozes personality, and is absent of cliches unless they're being used intentionally as criticism.

That's more than you can say for any Millar book since Swamp Thing or Superman Adventures.

[jesse_custer]

In what way?

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way in which its animals are treated. I hold that the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man."

I don't quote Gandhi in an attempt to be complicated or intellectual, just to illustrate that We3 is more complex than what you have suggested. The comic book addresses an issue that requires emotional, intellectual, and spiritual engagement. The idea that We3 is less "complicated" than Final Crisis is fallacious if you ask me. It just has one big idea as opposed to several big ideas that don't engage the reader in as many ways.

Their depth and complexity exists independently of an individual's preference or engagement. I suspect you don't particularly care about Hegelian dialectics, but the complexity of that philosophy is evident all the same.

You suspect wrong. Hegelian dialectics play a major role in sociology, and I am a sociologist. Dialectics, conceptually, is only complicated if you don't know what you're talking about.

Emotionally articulate? Perhaps. But what exactly is he articulating, what worldview or innovation is he putting forth beyond 'war is horrible, the military industrial complex is soulless'?

Well, the fact that animals are involved, and the fact that an origin not unlike a superhero origin is involved. The way Morrison connects these ideas is simple but brilliant.

That simply isn't true. Comicbook realpolitik is certainly one level or layer of the work, but Final Crisis is making a comment on the nature of creation and creativity, it's making a comment on the nature of evil and all the various forms it takes, it's referencing gnosticism and neoplatonism, it's calling back to Borges, it's invoking Carl Jung, and yeah it's doing some pretty great character work I think throughout.

And how is any of this more relevant to one's interests than, say, The Da Vinci Code?