Alan Moore vs Grant Morrison

[direction9]

The whole story structure was inspired by Jorge Luis Borges' labyrinth narrative in “The Garden of Forking Paths” .

what
also that was a great nonanswer

[Virtute]

This thread has been a crazy beautiful journey.

It may well be at its nadir now.

Hey, I'm sorry to have contributed in derailing the thread. I read the articles in your original post now. I think it's interesting how easily dismissive Moore seems of Morrison considering he claims to have read only a couple of his works, that too a long time ago.

[direction9]

hey i'm just keepin it real
this is me showing a ton of restraint, as we all know

[Libaax]

Yes, I was a child when I first saw Asterix, but it doesn't make a case for Tintin, because the fist image of him I ever saw was the Nickelodeon cartoon, not the comic. It's not like I saw Tintin but didn't pick my interest, it's that I saw 0 stuff about him. It was not a matter of choosing. There were no Spanish copies of Tintin in Mexio either. The popularity is the same with my parents and grandparents generation.

I agree that Tintin's fame might have waned by the 80s while Asterix kept rising.

Tintin not being big in Mexico doesnt mean he isnt one of the best selling series, known comics in the world. Over 300-400 million volumes sold. Here in Sweden there was a big national debate about Tintin in Congo racism not being safe for kids to read just months ago. Asterix is comic classic too and maybe more hyped in Franco-belgic comics world today but no way its bigger than Tintin all over the world.

Fame waned? Look at how much the comics is selling in Europe today still. One Tintin comics cost twice as hardcover the cost of US comics trade and still sell.

[Desaad]

Hey, I'm sorry to have contributed in derailing the thread. I read the articles in your original post now. I think it's interesting how easily dismissive Moore seems of Morrison considering he claims to have read only a couple of his works, that too a long time ago.

No worries.

I'm completely happy when threads get derailed.

It's more that I've just gotten sick of some of the ultimately fruitless arguments that I'm seeing pop up here, especially re: Final Crisis. It's a book I love, but whatever small impetus I might have had to convert others to my way of thinking has withered after years of everyone being locked into their opinions -- sometimes strong and well-supported, sometimes illogical and rather thin.

A couple of people who are on my 'side' of the debate are generally ill mannered and dismissive, as are a number of people on the opposite side, and it tends to devolve into something I'm just not interested in reading.

[tony ingram]

I completely disagree that Final Crisis had no great moments. The entire book is a beautiful ode to superheroes and how fiction has the power to affect us in positive ways. Sure, it has its flaws but to suggest that Final Crisis had no great moments is absurd to me.

Didn't affect me in a positive way...

Tintin not being big in Mexico doesnt mean he isnt one of the best selling series, known comics in the world. Over 300-400 million volumes sold. Here in Sweden there was a big national debate about Tintin in Congo racism not being safe for kids to read just months ago. Asterix is comic classic too and maybe more hyped in Franco-belgic comics world today but no way its bigger than Tintin all over the world.

Fame waned? Look at how much the comics is selling in Europe today still. One Tintin comics cost twice as hardcover the cost of US comics trade and still sell.

Rafa-Rivas appears to believe that the only criteria for judging how well known anything is, is how well known it is in North America. It's an attitude I've come across before on these boards. Still rather odd though, given how much of the world's population is not, in fact, located in North America.

[Virtute]

Rafa-Rivas appears to believe that the only criteria for judging how well known anything is, is how well known it is in North America. It's an attitude I've come across before on these boards. Still rather odd though, given how much of the world's population is not, in fact, located in North America.

Yeah, that kind of attitude is silly. I live in India and Tintin is still very popular here. In fact, the average person here is more likely to recognize Tintin than Batman.

[Auguste Dupin]

Yeah, that kind of attitude is silly. I live in India and Tintin is still very popular here. In fact, the average person here is more likely to recognize Tintin than Batman.

And considering you're about a 6th of the worlwide population, that's a huge push.

[Karl O'Neill]

It's hard to avoid making a sarcastic remark about your points, but I think I can control myself... What logical fallacy made you think I have to provide a full evaluation in order to be right? It's just a casual comment in which I lightly provide my general opinion.

Your logic also failed terribly with my two examples, I just mentioned two of the most trusted ones, I didn't say those are the only ones, that what either of the write is to be taken a dogma. Read a bunch of sites like that and get the general idea, that's it. You can also try reviews on reviewing sites. Also, it's no crime to disagree with the general reception, it's jus something that is used as a subjective reference.

Where does this leave us? I think Final Crisis is a master-piece. And if it fails at any point it's still way more creative and exciting than most comics in the past 10 years.

[king mob]

True.
I agree, it's not worth the effort.
Glad you linked that Bissette series of articles; I read it last year, and it was a fascinating first hand (and second, reliable hand) account of the true kerfluffle between Moore and DC, how DC alienated several top creators, and the last ditch effort to save those bridges they burned.

It's a great bit of history and a great bit of journalism that's up with his Teen Angels book.

[king mob]

Oh no doubt. Not only for himself but for his readers; it was a comic that definitely lived up to it's name and Morrison said he was trying to get all the bad shit we get hit with in our daily life out of our systems. In other terms, it was an enema for our system, so we can grow an immunity to the Filth in our lives and do something about.

Not only that, but it's one the best when it comes to Morrison talking about his beliefs. He distills his beliefs into it's essentials and hit us with it full force.

Very much so, and yes, there's a lot of Chris Morris in it but it's a key work and one that does need to be read a few times to be appreciated, however I do feel that the post-Filth Morrison is a shadow of his former self which isn't to say he was turning out shite afterwards, but it was in many respects going through the motions for him.

[Desaad]

Very much so, and yes, there's a lot of Chris Morris in it but it's a key work and one that does need to be read a few times to be appreciated, however I do feel that the post-Filth Morrison is a shadow of his former self which isn't to say he was turning out shite afterwards, but it was in many respects going through the motions for him.

I think that could maybe be said of his creator owned work, which feels very much to me like an attempt to break into mainstream cinema -- both Happy and Joe the Barbarian are pretty perfect high concept pitches for a movie of some sort -- but I think his company owned comics have still been quite good, if not as heady and experimental as the work of the younger man.

There is, of course, no comparing "Animal Man/Doom Patrol" to the work he's putting out these days, but books like Seven Soldiers, Batman and All Star Superman far eclipse the work he was doing for DC's mainstream in the later 90s (Batman Gothic, JLA, DC One Million, Aztek), or Marvel's in the 2000s. They're smarter, better structured, and have more to say than most of that work did.

At least for me.

[jesse_custer]

Final Crisis has many ideas, some of them very intriguing, but this is what I ultimately took from the book: "If you're not familiar with the DC Universe, this book's not for you (to love or to hate)."

[king mob]

Both know that Morrison did a mistake by imitating Moore during the mid 80s.

No he didn't. It helped Morrison get regular work so it helped him come from a writer who couldn't work on a comic without it going tits up to one who was coveted by Fleetway and DC.

[king mob]

Hmm, I may have to re-read Filth but 1st, 2nd, and 3rd impressions of it was that you needed to at least know Morrison's belief and his past works to somewhat or fully understand it.

Again, I'm going by memory of Filth and Direction and Virtue are probably right about the Filth.

Have a listen to the Chris Morris radio series Blue Jam. It's that feeling of fucked up weirdness Morrison was trying to tap into.